T14 decision for PI in CA Forum

[helpmepleaseee]

Options I have narrowed down are HLS (CoA 230k assuming my 1L grant is renewed for 2L/3L?? still looking into how Harvard's financial aid works), NYU (CoA 191K), Berkeley (no aid yet?? so potential CoA 250K+), UCLA (CoA 70k). I got into other T14s too but they are sticker/near sticker and would prefer all of the above to any of them.

I only want to do PI but I don't have unicorn ambitions. Looking into public defense or employment law (employee side only), but know for sure that I am going to pursue public interest work. Most interested in on-the-ground work, don't care much about prestige or titles or working at a fancy well-known nonprofit/org. I have family support in SoCal and plan to work/live there. General thoughts?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Harvard and NYU are survivable on LRAP in theory but the triad of loan payments+PI salary+Californian CoL sounds pretty dicey. It'd be easier to take those options seriously if you were getting something out of the extra prestige but it doesn't sound like you are. There's high-end union-side firms that would prefer HLS/NYU, and you might be interested in those, except that they're mostly located in DC (I've heard of NYC and SF too but not LA).

I'd go with UCLA if you're serious about wanting public defense - it'll be much easier to network during school and you can do clinics in your desired market, which is great for PI. And it doesn't cost an insane amount of money. Either the location or the affordability are sufficient to prefer UCLA to your other options here, so unless you somehow get an even lower CoA at Berkeley I think it's pretty clear.

[cavalier1138]

Yeah, if you're dead set on working in SoCal PI, then UCLA for just the cost of living is a great outcome. I agree that LRAP would make NYU and Harvard palatable, but that's easier to say before you're actually relying on it.

But what are your numbers? It's super-weird that you got Harvard and got $ at NYU but didn't snag a significant scholarship at a lower T13.

[Sinatra]

LA V20 mid-level here wanting to chime in. Plaintiff side employment law is pretty hard to break into because of its decent salary (typically between 80-95k for someone with 0-1 years experience) and the work is interesting if you're into it (helping others, often times minorities, who've been harmed in the workplace). Lateral options are strong, as well. Our L&E group is regularly opposed by more than a few, but by no means 'a lot,' of small to mid sized firms no one here has ever heard of, and I know of at least one guy who started P-side while clerking in law school and came over to us after a year. You didn't mention any interest in big law, but just saying it's not completely out of the question should you land one of these law clerk gigs in law school.

Because there's not many of these positions, even here in LA, I'd recommend networking early in LS. Cant really speak to what PI involves, but hope this helps.

[LawTweet]

LA V20 mid-level here wanting to chime in. Plaintiff side employment law is pretty hard to break into because of its decent salary (typically between 80-95k for someone with 0-1 years experience) and the work is interesting if you're into it (helping others, often times minorities, who've been harmed in the workplace).

Eh, it's not been bad for me. I came into law school knowing this was what I wanted to do and haven't had an issue finding opportunities. I'm at a lower T14 with grades in roughly the top third (give or take) of the class.

I think you should look most carefully at the schools' LRAP programs. Many LRAP programs only cover non-profits and government. Plaintiff firms are for-profit. Leaves you stuck with a salary much lower than big law without the financial assistance available to the PI students or the money from big law.

I'll also note, the plaintiff firm market in LA is next to nonexistent. To the best of my knowledge, there are literally zero firms that have even a small or informal summer program or 3L hiring program. The few firms that are in LA are quite small. San Diego has much better options if you're open to that. SF, NY, DC, and weirdly Nashville will have the strongest markets, though.

[Sinatra]

Eh, it's not been bad for me. I came into law school knowing this was what I wanted to do and haven't had an issue finding opportunities. I'm at a lower T14 with grades in roughly the top third

This surely, at the very least, speaks to why it hasn't been bad for you. Outside of a Fed clerkship, you have a strong shot at nearly any firm out there, provided you aren't socially awkward, which I'm sure isn't the case because P-side firms likely look at personality more than grades. That being said, if you have both and can speak as to why you want to be employee side, it'll be that much easier.

[jsnow212]

LRAP without family assistance doesn't make taking 230k for a non-unicorn PI job palatable as much as it makes itsurvivable.

10 Years of basically no asset accumulation outside of your IRA/401k is tough sentence to put yourself (and possible future family) through. I don't see anything wrong (and almost everything right) with UCLA for non-unicorn PI jobs in California.

[Sls17]

Another vote for UCLA, unless Berkeley aid comes through to the extent that COA gets close to $100k or so.

[Wubbles]

Voting for Harvard unless a t13 becomes super cheap for you, based on the assumption that your career plans will change in law school and you will end up regretting not having the flexibility of a Harvard Law degree. The difference between UCLA and Harvard if you change your mind is HUGE. I think 50% of my incoming class was PI or bust, but my school posts ~80% bl/fc rate and the diehard "save the world" types are doing commerical lit in NYC

[QContinuum]

Voting for Harvard unless a t13 becomes super cheap for you, based on the assumption that your career plans will change in law school and you will end up regretting not having the flexibility of a Harvard Law degree. The difference between UCLA and Harvard if you change your mind is HUGE. I think 50% of my incoming class was PI or bust, but my school posts ~80% bl/fc rate and the diehard "save the world" types are doing commerical lit in NYC

Why wouldn't NYU be better for OP than Harvard, though? It's $40k cheaper (plus interest). It's at least equally as strong (if not stronger) for PI. And should OP change their mind and decide to pursue BigLaw (as many do), NYU's BigLaw placement is plenty strong enough (and OP would end up with $40k + interest less debt to pay off).

Agree that Berkeley makes no sense if it'd cost more than either NYU or Harvard. Berkeley's a terrific law school but weaker than both NYU and Harvard.

Also agree with the caution about UCLA. I understand OP is currently shooting for non-unicorn PI, but plans easily (and often) change in law school. UCLA would - relative to a T13 - significantly limit OP's ability to change their mind.

[jsnow212]

UCLA is less flexible than a T14 degree, but couldn't one argue that HLS @ 230k almost certainly destines OP to the Lawschool--> BL outcome from the get go? OP is getting aid from HLS and, given HLS's requirement for getting that aid, it's very clear OP comes from a modest background without a notable financial safety net. In such a situation, I am willing to bet OP will ascribe to the BL "just for a few years to pay debt" path that the super-majority of those interested in PI going to HLS/NYU end up following, despite their generous LRAP programs.

In other words, both choices (UCLA or NYU/HLS) will likely limit OP's flexibility and choices coming out of LS. One due to lack of placement, the other due to lack of choice given debt.