Should I choose for money or name... please help Forum

[Lizzalou]

Hi guys,

I’m having a tough time deciding where I should attend in the fall and I need to start picking soon. Currently I’ve been accepted to the university of Florida, uva, duke, NYU, and Chicago. I think I’m between NYU, UF, and Chicago. I have received a full ride to UF plus a stipend for living and $25000 a year from NYU, still waiting on the financial form to come back from Chicago. I’m not sure exactly where I want to end up but I do know I want to practice corporate law leaning towards intellectual property in the future. My biggest issue is the classic money vs prestige. If money wasn’t an issue I would go to NYU or Chicago because I would love the experience. Is the debt worth it? Will I be able to pay it off? I do want to end up with the most options for jobs in the future but I don’t want to make a stupid or costly mistake

Any help is appreciated!!

[AYJD]

NYU no question. If you want corporate law the difference in chances of getting BigLaw out of UF vs a T6 school are gigantic. 25k a year for NYU I assume? I definitely value that over UF even with a full ride + stipend.

[QContinuum]

Congrats on your terrific options!

You should definitely not go to UF given your acceptances to multiple T13s (with an almost 40% scholarship at NYU!). The gap in placement power is simply too great. Are you a splitter (i.e., low(er) GPA/high LSAT) or reverse splitter (i.e., high GPA/low(er) LSAT)? Did you get any money at UVA or Duke? Unless you're a pretty "extreme" splitter (say, a GPA in the 2.x range and a 170+ LSAT), which might lead to increased unpredictability in admissions/reduced scholarship aid, your best option might be a "lower" T13 on a (close to) full ride - your almost half-ride at NYU suggests you should be able to land even more $$$ at a school like Michigan (known to be especially generous) or NW or Cornell.

When in the cycle did you apply? Did you blanket the T13? If you applied late (i.e., January 2019 or later), and/or only applied to the schools you mention, it may be worth reapplying early the next cycle. In light of your NYU acceptance and scholly, you shouldn't need to go all the way down the rankings to UF to get a full ride.

In any case, NYU on an almost 40% scholarship is an amazing outcome and well worth taking.

[Lizzalou]

Congrats on your terrific options!

You should definitely not go to UF given your acceptances to multiple T13s (with an almost 40% scholarship at NYU!). The gap in placement power is simply too great. Are you a splitter (i.e., low(er) GPA/high LSAT) or reverse splitter (i.e., high GPA/low(er) LSAT)? Did you get any money at UVA or Duke? Unless you're a pretty "extreme" splitter (say, a GPA in the 2.x range and a 170+ LSAT), which might lead to increased unpredictability in admissions/reduced scholarship aid, your best option might be a "lower" T13 on a (close to) full ride - your almost half-ride at NYU suggests you should be able to land even more $$$ at a school like Michigan (known to be especially generous) or NW or Cornell.

When in the cycle did you apply? Did you blanket the T13? If you applied late (i.e., January 2019 or later), and/or only applied to the schools you mention, it may be worth reapplying early the next cycle. In light of your NYU acceptance and scholly, you shouldn't need to go all the way down the rankings to UF to get a full ride.

In any case, NYU on an almost 40% scholarship is an amazing outcome and well worth taking.

Hi!

Thanks for the advice. I think I’m a reverse splitter 3.9 gpa and a 166 lsat. I also got 25000 a year from uva and I haven’t gotten my financial aid form back from duke. Hoping to be able to use it as leverage with NYU if they offer me a good deal. I applied the first week of November, I didn’t apply to Michigan or Cornell just because I didn’t have a lot of prior knowledge about the schools. I will keep reapplying in mind if I think I can get a better deal in the end. I’m not terrified of debt but for obvious reasons I would like to not waste money and make a smart investment.

[Lizzalou]

NYU no question. If you want corporate law the difference in chances of getting BigLaw out of UF vs a T6 school are gigantic. 25k a year for NYU I assume? I definitely value that over UF even with a full ride + stipend.

Thanks for the advice! And yes 25,000 a year to NYU. Still waiting on duke and Chicago to give me offers

[beinghuman]

You should be able to use your NYU scholarship to get more money from the other schools. In all cases, you should not be considering UF as an option at this point based on all what was said above.

[QContinuum]

You should be able to use your NYU scholarship to get more money from the other schools. In all cases, you should not be considering UF as an option at this point based on all what was said above.

Yes, negotiating should definitely be kept in mind. NYU with an almost 40% scholly is a very strong offer.

That said, given OP's 3.9 GPA/166 LSAT, and given OP's lack of blanketing the T13, I think economically it might make the most sense to 1) retake the LSAT, and 2) reapply, applying early and blanketing the T13. Literally every extra point on the LSAT will make a difference. A few extra points next cycle could easily land OP multiple full-rides across the T13.

Again, NYU with an almost 40% scholly is an objectively terrific outcome, and objectively worth taking. But OP could very possibly eliminate the other 60% of that debt by retaking and reapplying. (Even if OP doesn't retake, and/or retakes but can't crack 166, they are likely to get more $ at Mich or Cornell.)

[beinghuman]

I definitely agree. My advice to negotiate stands if OP really wants to go this year, since OP is in a relatively decent spot right now.

You should be able to use your NYU scholarship to get more money from the other schools. In all cases, you should not be considering UF as an option at this point based on all what was said above.

Yes, negotiating should definitely be kept in mind. NYU with an almost 40% scholly is a very strong offer.

That said, given OP's 3.9 GPA/166 LSAT, and given OP's lack of blanketing the T13, I think economically it might make the most sense to 1) retake the LSAT, and 2) reapply, applying early and blanketing the T13. Literally every extra point on the LSAT will make a difference. A few extra points next cycle could easily land OP multiple full-rides across the T13.

Again, NYU with an almost 40% scholly is an objectively terrific outcome, and objectively worth taking. But OP could very possibly eliminate the other 60% of that debt by retaking and reapplying. (Even if OP doesn't retake, and/or retakes but can't crack 166, they are likely to get more $ at Mich or Cornell.)

[albanach]

You should be able to use your NYU scholarship to get more money from the other schools. In all cases, you should not be considering UF as an option at this point based on all what was said above.

Yes, negotiating should definitely be kept in mind. NYU with an almost 40% scholly is a very strong offer.

That said, given OP's 3.9 GPA/166 LSAT, and given OP's lack of blanketing the T13, I think economically it might make the most sense to 1) retake the LSAT, and 2) reapply, applying early and blanketing the T13. Literally every extra point on the LSAT will make a difference. A few extra points next cycle could easily land OP multiple full-rides across the T13.

Again, NYU with an almost 40% scholly is an objectively terrific outcome, and objectively worth taking. But OP could very possibly eliminate the other 60% of that debt by retaking and reapplying. (Even if OP doesn't retake, and/or retakes but can't crack 166, they are likely to get more $ at Mich or Cornell.)

I agree that retaking is worthwhile here. If OP does choose to attend, bear in mind the total cost of attendance. While UVA might have matched NYU at $25k/year, total cost of attendance at UVA is about $50k lower.

[QContinuum]

I agree that retaking is worthwhile here. If OP does choose to attend, bear in mind the total cost of attendance. While UVA might have matched NYU at $25k/year, total cost of attendance at UVA is about $50k lower.

Great point, albanach, thanks for raising it. Since OP wants corporate law, I agree that it doesn't make sense to pay an additional $50k to attend NYU over UVA given the minute placement power differential between NYU and UVA for BigLaw. (That $50k, of course, will actually cost more than $50k once you factor in loan interest.) And as I always note, loan repayments come out of post-tax income so OP would actually need to earn something like $70-80k to have $50k to pay toward the debt after taxes.

[239840]

I agree that retaking is worthwhile here. If OP does choose to attend, bear in mind the total cost of attendance. While UVA might have matched NYU at $25k/year, total cost of attendance at UVA is about $50k lower.

Great point, albanach, thanks for raising it. Since OP wants corporate law, I agree that it doesn't make sense to pay an additional $50k to attend NYU over UVA given the minute placement power differential between NYU and UVA for BigLaw. (That $50k, of course, will actually cost more than $50k once you factor in loan interest.) And as I always note, loan repayments come out of post-tax income so OP would actually need to earn something like $70-80k to have $50k to pay toward the debt after taxes.

Is it crucial to apply super early if someone decides to retake and reapply? I'm also considering it, but since I'd likely be working full-time while preparing for a retake I'd probably have to be open to the possibility of the September or October administration just to allow time for more PTs. It'd be nice to knock out a good retake in June with the last paper test, but I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then. Would applying in November or December be disadvantageous?

[albanach]

Is it crucial to apply super early if someone decides to retake and reapply? I'm also considering it, but since I'd likely be working full-time while preparing for a retake I'd probably have to be open to the possibility of the September or October administration just to allow time for more PTs. It'd be nice to knock out a good retake in June with the last paper test, but I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then. Would applying in November or December be disadvantageous?

General consensus is that the fall administration is fine.

[QContinuum]

Is it crucial to apply super early if someone decides to retake and reapply? I'm also considering it, but since I'd likely be working full-time while preparing for a retake I'd probably have to be open to the possibility of the September or October administration just to allow time for more PTs. It'd be nice to knock out a good retake in June with the last paper test, but I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then. Would applying in November or December be disadvantageous?

General consensus is that the fall administration is fine.

Getting everything in by December 1 is considered early. Getting everything in by December 31 is OK. You just don't want to be in a position of submitting in January. September/October LSAT administration is fine. Just have your rec letters filed with LSAC and all of your essays written (PS and any Why Xs you want to write - most schools don't care, but a few do, notably Penn) so you're ready to pull the trigger once your LSAT scores come in.

[jsnow212]

Is it crucial to apply super early if someone decides to retake and reapply? I'm also considering it, but since I'd likely be working full-time while preparing for a retake I'd probably have to be open to the possibility of the September or October administration just to allow time for more PTs. It'd be nice to knock out a good retake in June with the last paper test, but I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then. Would applying in November or December be disadvantageous?

Bear in mind two things:
1) The September administration this year is all-digital, make sure to look up the logistics of that and be prepared.
2) You might be able to get in everything before Thanksgiving if you are all ready by the time the score comes in. I think this would be even more ideal.

[sev]

Again, NYU with an almost 40% scholly is an objectively terrific outcome, and objectively worth taking. But OP could very possibly eliminate the other 60% of that debt by retaking and reapplying. (Even if OP doesn't retake, and/or retakes but can't.

Yikes. No it's not. You're forgetting NYC living expenses, which make even a 40% scholly at NYU add up to $220k+ COA (conservatively!). That's an absurd amount of debt.

OP should only consider that much debt if they're enthusiastic about biglaw for an extended period of time or 100% dedicated to PSLF.

[QContinuum]

Again, NYU with an almost 40% scholly is an objectively terrific outcome, and objectively worth taking. But OP could very possibly eliminate the other 60% of that debt by retaking and reapplying. (Even if OP doesn't retake, and/or retakes but can't.

Yikes. No it's not. You're forgetting NYC living expenses, which make even a 40% scholly at NYU add up to $220k+ COA (conservatively!). That's an absurd amount of debt.

OP should only consider that much debt if they're enthusiastic about biglaw for an extended period of time or 100% dedicated to PSLF.

A T13 at 40% off is, by any reasonable standard, a terrific outcome. Characterizing that outcome as "yikes" and "absurd" is patently ridiculous.

Now, I'm as debt-averse as anyone and certainly I don't want to pooh-pooh the significant amount OP would still have to shell out for tuition and COL - that's why, ITT, I plumped for UVA over NYU given a $50k COL differential, and why I pointed out that "economically it might make the most sense" to retake and reapply across the T13, potentially going to Mich or Cornell if either of those schools gives OP more money than NYU (which is likely).

At the same time, it's important to be realistic and acknowledge that an offer to attend a T13 - heck, a T6 - at 60% cost is a terrific outcome.

[sev]

A T13 at 40% off is, by any reasonable standard, a terrific outcome. Characterizing that outcome as "yikes" and "absurd" is patently ridiculous.

Being locked into a job that forces you to work 60-80 hours/week for 5 years is pretty yikes to me.

[LBJ's Hair]

A T13 at 40% off is, by any reasonable standard, a terrific outcome. Characterizing that outcome as "yikes" and "absurd" is patently ridiculous.

Being locked into a job that forces you to work 60-80 hours/week for 5 years is pretty yikes to me.

1. that's fine but you're not OP, and OP is looking to do IP/corporate. so this is par for the course. the job you're worried about being "locked in to" is the one s/he is taking on all this debt to get in the first place.
2. delaying attendance by another year to retake the LSAT would likely cost him/her more money in foregone earnings (because s/he'd start practicing a year later) than s/he'd pick up in scholarship $$ unless s/he got a full ride. plus there's no guarantee his/her LSAT score would improve anyway.

this is a solid scholarship. it makes no sense for anyone in OP's scenario to retake unless 1) they're pure public interest and have absolutely garbage earning potential (so the foregone year of earnings wouldn't make up for the possibility for additional scholarship money) or 2) they're absolutely dead-set on Y/S

I'm normally team "retake," but not when you're in at a T6 with a solid scholarship...the math doesn't work out. and there's a human aspect to this too--OP wants to be a lawyer. s/she's doesn't want to wait around another year to take a stupid test on the off-chance that she can bump her score up a few points to get additional money at a school she already got into.

[QContinuum]

A T13 at 40% off is, by any reasonable standard, a terrific outcome. Characterizing that outcome as "yikes" and "absurd" is patently ridiculous.

Being locked into a job that forces you to work 60-80 hours/week for 5 years is pretty yikes to me.

1. that's fine but you're not OP, and OP is looking to do IP/corporate. so this is par for the course. the job you're worried about being "locked in to" is the one s/he is taking on all this debt to get in the first place.
2. delaying attendance by another year to retake the LSAT would likely cost him/her more money in foregone earnings (because s/he'd start practicing a year later) than s/he'd pick up in scholarship $$ unless s/he got a full ride. plus there's no guarantee his/her LSAT score would improve anyway.

this is a solid scholarship. it makes no sense for anyone in OP's scenario to retake unless 1) they're pure public interest and have absolutely garbage earning potential (so the foregone year of earnings wouldn't make up for the possibility for additional scholarship money) or 2) they're absolutely dead-set on Y/S

It's also not "yikes" when said 60-80 hours/week job starts out paying $190k (plus bar prep stipend/reimbursement) and rises rapidly every year, and provides very solid exit options starting at around ~3 years in to in-house roles with much better work/life balance.

sev, you seem very anti-BigLaw, which is perfectly fine and understandable, but OP wants BigLaw. Try not to be distracted by your own anti-BigLaw views when evaluating whether NYU's offer is objectively a good one for OP, in light of OP's goals.

At this point I'm actually leaning toward reconsidering my initial suggestion about possibly retaking/reapplying. I actually think LBJ may be right and OP should seriously consider just taking the deal. I ran OP's numbers through MyLSN and it looks like my "gut" instinct about OP possibly getting more $ at Michigan/Cornell even with his current LSAT was wrong. Based on MyLSN data, OP won't get better offers anywhere in the T13 unless his LSAT goes up. Now, I think it's likely OP can juice at least a few extra points out of the LSAT... but it's not guaranteed. So it would be entirely reasonable and rational for OP to simply attend NYU this cycle.

(For the avoidance of doubt, my advice would be different if OP was staring down NYU at sticker or close to sticker. But that's not the case here.)

[FND]

You should be able to use your NYU scholarship to get more money from the other schools. In all cases, you should not be considering UF as an option at this point based on all what was said above.

Just because no one seems t have mentioned it, OP should also use any scholarship offers from other schools (just not UF) to try to negotiate with NYU. They might be willing to bump their scholly up $5k or $10k

[jsnow212]

A higher LSAT will result in increased scholarships across the T7-13, but will have a diminishing returns in OP's situation. In order to qualify for full-named scholarships at the T10, OP would need 6-8 points + "something else". If OP gets 5 or so points, they likely will end up with $$$ @ T7-10 and still around $$ @ CCN since CCN don't really give out $$$ offers (CCN jumps strongly from $$->$$$$ and really only offer $$$ to a small minority of candidates, usually with a combination of exception need + merit).

OP's outcome of 40% off NYU is probably closer to someone with a high 160s rather than a mid 160s score, suggesting that OP would have to hurdle a larger LSAT gap to get notably better results.

Given that, I think OP wouldn't be making a mistake taking NYU @ 40% discount or, even better, leveraging UVA for a $$$ offer and attending there.

[sev]

sev, you seem very anti-BigLaw, which is perfectly fine and understandable, but OP wants BigLaw. Try not to be distracted by your own anti-BigLaw views when evaluating whether NYU's offer is objectively a good one for OP, in light of OP's goals.

Not at all. Biglaw's fine. But I just want OP to realize that there are (A) plenty of unhappy people in biglaw who thought it was their ideal outcome who are (B) locked into working there for 5 years to pay off debt and (C) OP doesn't have to be locked in for that long while pursuing what they think is their goal (UVA will absolutely give OP the opportunity they want).

(To be clear, @LBJ, I don't think OP should retake either. They are likely very likely to end up with a good offer--perhaps even a terrific one.)

[QContinuum]

sev, you seem very anti-BigLaw, which is perfectly fine and understandable, but OP wants BigLaw. Try not to be distracted by your own anti-BigLaw views when evaluating whether NYU's offer is objectively a good one for OP, in light of OP's goals.

Not at all. Biglaw's fine. But I just want OP to realize that there are (A) plenty of unhappy people in biglaw who thought it was their ideal outcome who are (B) locked into working there for 5 years to pay off debt and (C) OP doesn't have to be locked in for that long while pursuing what they think is their goal (UVA will absolutely give OP the opportunity they want).

(To be clear, @LBJ, I don't think OP should retake either. They are likely very likely to end up with a good offer--perhaps even a terrific one.)

So then I'm not sure why you came in to the thread at all with your "yikes", "absurd", etc. comments. albanach and I already noted earlier in this thread:

bear in mind the total cost of attendance. While UVA might have matched NYU at $25k/year, total cost of attendance at UVA is about $50k lower.

Since OP wants corporate law, I agree that it doesn't make sense to pay an additional $50k to attend NYU over UVA given the minute placement power differential between NYU and UVA for BigLaw. (That $50k, of course, will actually cost more than $50k once you factor in loan interest.) And as I always note, loan repayments come out of post-tax income so OP would actually need to earn something like $70-80k to have $50k to pay toward the debt after taxes.

And even in my very first post ITT - the one where I said "NYU on an almost 40% scholarship is an amazing outcome," which you seemed to take offense to - that same post noted that a "lower" T13 could be a better option over NYU:

Did you get any money at UVA or Duke? ... your best option might be a "lower" T13

[sev]

So then I'm not sure why you came in to the thread at all with your "yikes", "absurd", etc. comments.

I wasn't calling you or all of your advice "yikes" or "absurd." (To be clear, I never called any of your advice absurd.)

I think you're giving broadly good advice. Perhaps I should've said that.

I'm merely saying that an offer that leaves you with a quarter of a million in debt is almost never "objectively terrific" and is in fact likely "yikes,' absent one of the two factors that I mentioned (either (A) some assurance that one will love the biglaw life (maybe by working there as a paralegal) or (B) a dedication to PSLF).