Miami vs UF/ National ND recognition Forum

[LegalComedian]

Have been accepted into Miami and UF law. Full scholarships to both. Eventually want to end up back in Miami, but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that. Other factors certainly play in there (fed soc, ties, etc), but in a vacuum, which is a better choice? UF is higher ranked but from what I hear, Miami is more respected among local firms and BigLaw offices. It also has higher bar pass rate and employment stats. Lastly, Miami's new President has talked about investing highly in the law school, so the ranking should hopefully been going up.

Also accepted to Notre Dame with partial scholarship, but not sure the name carries outside the Midwest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[cavalier1138]

but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that.

I'm going to avoid making a bunch of jokes about libertarians and just say that IJ and biglaw are totally different career tracks. I'm not sure how easy it would be to transition back to Miami after spending significant time in DC working for an organization that has no real relationship to private practice in Florida.

In terms of UF vs. Miami, I'll defer to Florida locals, but I believe I've heard that Miami is better at placing in Miami. Their employment numbers are relatively similar (biglaw is incredibly hard to land from either), so if that information about Miami is correct, it sounds like the right choice for you. Notre Dame should not even be in consideration.

[dudeknows]

Have been accepted into Miami and UF law. Full scholarships to both. Eventually want to end up back in Miami, but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that. Other factors certainly play in there (fed soc, ties, etc), but in a vacuum, which is a better choice? UF is higher ranked but from what I hear, Miami is more respected among local firms and BigLaw offices. It also has higher bar pass rate and employment stats. Lastly, Miami's new President has talked about investing highly in the law school, so the ranking should hopefully been going up.

Also accepted to Notre Dame with partial scholarship, but not sure the name carries outside the Midwest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I'm not sure where you are hearing that UM Is more respected, from my experience it is the opposite. That is especially so when it comes to biglaw. I think UF outperforms UM in almost every metric in Miami and would be surprised if UM does any better DC too. If you do well at UF, you will have almost every door open to you in the city.

I won't speak on DC cause I just don't know about that. But as a UFer, I personally know classmates that went to DC from UF.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: A ton of people on this forum are completely uninformed on the Miami market (just look at other Miami threads). I think that the majority of poster that speak about Miami are actually in a T14 school, which routinely do very poorly in placing their students in the market. That creates this strange bias on the forum where it seems impossible to land a biglaw job coming out of any school, much less UF or UM. But the reality of the situation is that if you do well (top 20%) in either school, you have a fighting chance at landing a good job in the city (maybe not a V50 firm, but a respected shop). Of course, as you go up the rankings the probability increases until you get to around the top 5%, at which point it is almost guaranteed that you land a cush job, unless you are a complete weirdo. Also, UF's ranges for getting a good job are probably better--top 20% student at UF has a better shot than top 20% at UM.

[cavalier1138]

MORE IMPORTANTLY: A ton of people on this forum are completely uninformed on the Miami market (just look at other Miami threads). I think that the majority of poster that speak about Miami are actually in a T14 school, which routinely do very poorly in placing their students in the market. That creates this strange bias on the forum where it seems impossible to land a biglaw job coming out of any school, much less UF or UM. But the reality of the situation is that if you do well (top 20%) in either school, you have a fighting chance at landing a good job in the city (maybe not a V50 firm, but a respected shop). Of course, as you go up the rankings the probability increases until you get to around the top 5%, at which point it is almost guaranteed that you land a cush job, unless you are a complete weirdo. Also, UF's ranges for getting a good job are probably better--top 20% student at UF has a better shot than top 20% at UM.

That's not unusual for any decent regional school. And if you could do anything to guarantee you place in the top 20% of your class, it sounds like a great deal. But since you can't guarantee you'll even be in the top half...

[Dcc617]

Yeah top 20% is a pretty big if. Remember, everyone thinks they're going to do it, but 8 out of 10 don't.

[dudeknows]

Totally agree with both posters above. It’s definitely an upstream battle. All I was trying to note is that theres a ton of misinformed people posting about the Miami market on TLS. That’s all.

And also, UF is a better school in the state, no matter what city you plan on practicing in. Moreover, for the average person it’ll be easier to focus on school in Gainesville. Which is important because you need to do very well at either school to achieve your goals (DC/biglaw). I know some people are more disciplined than others, but if you doubt your ability to avoid distractions (beach, clubs, events, etc...), go to UF. IMO

Bottom line, think about what environment is best for you to succeed. But keep in mind that UF is probably (it is) a better school, all else being equal.

[lavarman84]

Like all the Florida markets, Miami is insular. If you have strong ties to Miami, UF is more respected than UM, especially at the bigger firms. Just keep in mind that you'll have to do well in law school to accomplish your goals.

[TFALAWL]

Total left turn, but for the first time in the ten years I’ve been on this site (shit, time flies) I’m beginning to question the wisdom that you can’t predict at all how well you’ll do in law school.

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

I guess the point id like to make— cuz people will fight me on the previous paragraph, which is fine, so long as this point isn’t lost— lots of people who attend TTT schools are doing so as an extension of college, have no idea what they want to do with life, are paying in-state tuition and have upper-middle class parents paying the bills.

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

[QContinuum]

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I'm not sure how you reach the top quarter estimate. Why not top third or top fifth? Is there some formula where plugging in a 3.8 and 168 and analyzing them against UM's 25th/50th/75th GPA/LSAT yields a top quarter class rank?

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

So you worked for a year in the same city as a T3/T4 law school... and simply based on having worked in the same city, you were able to conclude - with certainty! - that you would have been in the top 10% had you attended that T3/T4 law school?

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

I'm not sure where the basis for this is coming from. If anything, students at T2/T3/T4s are well aware of the critical importance of getting good grades. Everything I've heard is that competition at T2/T3/T4 law schools is a whole order of magnitude more intense than competition at the T13/T20, because at the T2/T3/T4, doing well is literally a matter of professional life or death.

[Npret]

Have been accepted into Miami and UF law. Full scholarships to both. Eventually want to end up back in Miami, but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that. Other factors certainly play in there (fed soc, ties, etc), but in a vacuum, which is a better choice? UF is higher ranked but from what I hear, Miami is more respected among local firms and BigLaw offices. It also has higher bar pass rate and employment stats. Lastly, Miami's new President has talked about investing highly in the law school, so the ranking should hopefully been going up.

Also accepted to Notre Dame with partial scholarship, but not sure the name carries outside the Midwest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I'm not sure where you are hearing that UM Is more respected, from my experience it is the opposite. That is especially so when it comes to biglaw. I think UF outperforms UM in almost every metric in Miami and would be surprised if UM does any better DC too. If you do well at UF, you will have almost every door open to you in the city.

I won't speak on DC cause I just don't know about that. But as a UFer, I personally know classmates that went to DC from UF.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: A ton of people on this forum are completely uninformed on the Miami market (just look at other Miami threads). I think that the majority of poster that speak about Miami are actually in a T14 school, which routinely do very poorly in placing their students in the market. That creates this strange bias on the forum where it seems impossible to land a biglaw job coming out of any school, much less UF or UM. But the reality of the situation is that if you do well (top 20%) in either school, you have a fighting chance at landing a good job in the city (maybe not a V50 firm, but a respected shop). Of course, as you go up the rankings the probability increases until you get to around the top 5%, at which point it is almost guaranteed that you land a cush job, unless you are a complete weirdo. Also, UF's ranges for getting a good job are probably better--top 20% student at UF has a better shot than top 20% at UM.

People aren’t misinformed at all. Miami is a tiny, insular market. The advice that it is difficult to get a job in Miami is because of your requirement that the student be at least top 20% couples of course with the requiremen of ties.
Having to be in the top 20% or higher to reach your only desired outcome is risky. That’s why people caution about the competitive market and difficulties in landing a big law job.
Having to have significant ties is a requirement people either have or they don’t. People from T14 schools with ties get jobs in Miami. Just remember that there are a handful of jobs in Miami so the competition is high.

[Npret]

Have been accepted into Miami and UF law. Full scholarships to both. Eventually want to end up back in Miami, but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that. Other factors certainly play in there (fed soc, ties, etc), but in a vacuum, which is a better choice? UF is higher ranked but from what I hear, Miami is more respected among local firms and BigLaw offices. It also has higher bar pass rate and employment stats. Lastly, Miami's new President has talked about investing highly in the law school, so the ranking should hopefully been going up.

Also accepted to Notre Dame with partial scholarship, but not sure the name carries outside the Midwest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Miami sends 2.6% of grads to DC
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/miami/jobs/location/
UF sends 2.8% of grads to DC
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/flor ... /location/
You have a very specific job in mind. I don’t know if that’s a 0L pipedream that will disappear like many.
Either way going to law school with one very specific job in mind is foolish. Learn more about the jobs you might obtain.
As others said, working for a public interest group in DC “for a few years”is not going to help you get back into biglaw in Miami.
My advice is to look closely at your career goals and broaden them significantly.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Total left turn, but for the first time in the ten years I’ve been on this site (shit, time flies) I’m beginning to question the wisdom that you can’t predict at all how well you’ll do in law school.

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

I guess the point id like to make— cuz people will fight me on the previous paragraph, which is fine, so long as this point isn’t lost— lots of people who attend TTT schools are doing so as an extension of college, have no idea what they want to do with life, are paying in-state tuition and have upper-middle class parents paying the bills.

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

The bolded is completely true. I used to make this argument on here years ago. Maybe you were own of the posters who ridiculed me. You're off any billy madison style hit list I may or may not have.

[Npret]

Total left turn, but for the first time in the ten years I’ve been on this site (shit, time flies) I’m beginning to question the wisdom that you can’t predict at all how well you’ll do in law school.

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

I guess the point id like to make— cuz people will fight me on the previous paragraph, which is fine, so long as this point isn’t lost— lots of people who attend TTT schools are doing so as an extension of college, have no idea what they want to do with life, are paying in-state tuition and have upper-middle class parents paying the bills.

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

The bolded is completely true. I used to make this argument on here years ago. Maybe you were own of the posters who ridiculed me. You're off any billy madison style hit list I may or may not have.

Oh good. Now we can just stop advising people against going to school where they need top grades to get a job because we can guarantee 50% of the class are dumbasses.

[cavalier1138]

Total left turn, but for the first time in the ten years I’ve been on this site (shit, time flies) I’m beginning to question the wisdom that you can’t predict at all how well you’ll do in law school.

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

I guess the point id like to make— cuz people will fight me on the previous paragraph, which is fine, so long as this point isn’t lost— lots of people who attend TTT schools are doing so as an extension of college, have no idea what they want to do with life, are paying in-state tuition and have upper-middle class parents paying the bills.

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

The bolded is completely true. I used to make this argument on here years ago. Maybe you were own of the posters who ridiculed me. You're off any billy madison style hit list I may or may not have.

Oh good. Now we can just stop advising people against going to school where they need top grades to get a job because we can guarantee 50% of the class are dumbasses.

The even better news is that [person with above-median LSAT] isn't in that 50%! Guaranteed!

[Dcc617]

Come on, don't you all see how irresponsible it is to assure 0Ls that they can reach their goals from any school if they just work hard enough? They'll listen to you because it's what they want to believe. You could fuck some people's lives up pretty bad.

[nixy]

Total left turn, but for the first time in the ten years I’ve been on this site (shit, time flies) I’m beginning to question the wisdom that you can’t predict at all how well you’ll do in law school.

Let’s say you’re Jane the TLSer with a 3.8 and 168. Sure, no guarantees you’ll be top 10% at UM, but certainly you can predict top 1/4.

I District-clerked in a regional city with a law school ranked in the 150-range. I was around top 1/3 at a top 10. I can say with certainty I would have graduated top 10% at this local school.

I guess the point id like to make— cuz people will fight me on the previous paragraph, which is fine, so long as this point isn’t lost— lots of people who attend TTT schools are doing so as an extension of college, have no idea what they want to do with life, are paying in-state tuition and have upper-middle class parents paying the bills.

Tldr: schools outside top 50 are flooded with kids who just don’t give a shit. And you can absolutely predict on front end you will outperform them.

The bolded is completely true. I used to make this argument on here years ago. Maybe you were own of the posters who ridiculed me. You're off any billy madison style hit list I may or may not have.

I just don't think you can rely on this at all. First, if you're going off of being a clerk, that means your conclusion is based on the people from that school who happen to show up before you in a given year - a totally unrepresentative sample (especially since the older they are, the easier they would have had it compared to today). Second, people doing law school as an extension of college with no idea what they want to do with life could actually still do well in law school classes (there are plenty of those people at the T14, I would imagine). Third, "flooded" is pretty imprecise. Even if there is some identifiable group of people in a given class who don't really care, if only the top 15-20% in a given class have a shot at the kind of job you want, you're still facing tougher odds from that school than at other schools with better odds - it's an illusory kind of improvement. Finally, individual class years vary a lot and all it takes is a few more people with focus to throw you back down the curve.

Anecdotally, I went to a strong regional and my classmates were smart and focused. They just mostly didn't come from the kind of background where going to T14 was really a concept, and they wanted to stay in-state after graduation.

[Npret]

Come on, don't you all see how irresponsible it is to assure 0Ls that they can reach their goals from any school if they just work hard enough? They'll listen to you because it's what they want to believe. You could fuck some people's lives up pretty bad.

This is absolutely true. 0Ls argue back all the time about how hard they will work and that will be enough. I wish law school rewarded people who worked the hardest, but it just isn’t a guarantee.

[TFALAWL]

My observation was based on knowing a representative sample of students— i volunteered a decent bit with the school. And I stand by what I said. It’s admittedly intuitive and not empirical, but let’s say that only one-half of the class gives a shit — that’s your universe of competition. So it’s not unreasonable to guess that, at a minimum, you’d fall in the middle of that half, which yield top 1/4.

How do I know half the class doesn’t give a shit? Because I’ve spent hours at that school. To the poster who is saying that we’re giving “potentially life altering advice to noob college kids,” all I’m saying to OP is check out UM for herself and see if she can intuit whether the kids give a shit. This takes lots of mindfulness and leg work.

I guess to the extent I would do anything different, is I would balance the amount of time I spend here (which is an excellent resource— I’ve used this for 10 years— [Ken went to same UG as me] with more time spending my boots on the ground.

I would’ve learned intangibles such as the fact that UCKA has a better culture for me than UVA and maybe, for me, that would be a worthwhile trade off

[Npret]

Whatever OP does, the chances of a job in DC (much less a specific job) or Miami biglaw are limited from both schools. OP is going to have to significantly outperform most of the class, whether their classmates are working hard or partying on their trust fund.

OP hasn’t posted their stats.

[cavalier1138]

I would’ve learned intangibles such as the fact that UCKA has a better culture for me than UVA and maybe, for me, that would be a worthwhile trade off

If you didn't want to work in DC or in a big firm, that might have been true. But it wouldn't be a worthwhile tradeoff if you couldn't predict your performance at UCLA. And since you can't do that...

How do I know half the class doesn’t give a shit?

I think the more accurate question is "How do you know that this group is the half that ends up below median?" Maybe you do know empirically that half of the class at a given school doesn't care. I think that's horseshit, but maybe you really do know it. That has no bearing on their grades, because it's entirely possible to not give a shit and still place well in your class.

[Npret]

It’s easy for people who have done well to look back and see validity. What about all the kids that work hard and don’t get the grades? To me this entire discussion is pointless. I wouldn’t want to bet my future against having to out compete 80% to 90% of the class.

[Dcc617]

Especially when the alternative is just retaking a dumb standardized test.

[dudeknows]

Have been accepted into Miami and UF law. Full scholarships to both. Eventually want to end up back in Miami, but really looking to work for IJ in DC before that. Other factors certainly play in there (fed soc, ties, etc), but in a vacuum, which is a better choice? UF is higher ranked but from what I hear, Miami is more respected among local firms and BigLaw offices. It also has higher bar pass rate and employment stats. Lastly, Miami's new President has talked about investing highly in the law school, so the ranking should hopefully been going up.

Also accepted to Notre Dame with partial scholarship, but not sure the name carries outside the Midwest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I'm not sure where you are hearing that UM Is more respected, from my experience it is the opposite. That is especially so when it comes to biglaw. I think UF outperforms UM in almost every metric in Miami and would be surprised if UM does any better DC too. If you do well at UF, you will have almost every door open to you in the city.

I won't speak on DC cause I just don't know about that. But as a UFer, I personally know classmates that went to DC from UF.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: A ton of people on this forum are completely uninformed on the Miami market (just look at other Miami threads). I think that the majority of poster that speak about Miami are actually in a T14 school, which routinely do very poorly in placing their students in the market. That creates this strange bias on the forum where it seems impossible to land a biglaw job coming out of any school, much less UF or UM. But the reality of the situation is that if you do well (top 20%) in either school, you have a fighting chance at landing a good job in the city (maybe not a V50 firm, but a respected shop). Of course, as you go up the rankings the probability increases until you get to around the top 5%, at which point it is almost guaranteed that you land a cush job, unless you are a complete weirdo. Also, UF's ranges for getting a good job are probably better--top 20% student at UF has a better shot than top 20% at UM.

People aren’t misinformed at all. Miami is a tiny, insular market. The advice that it is difficult to get a job in Miami is because of your requirement that the student be at least top 20% couples of course with the requiremen of ties.
Having to be in the top 20% or higher to reach your only desired outcome is risky. That’s why people caution about the competitive market and difficulties in landing a big law job.
Having to have significant ties is a requirement people either have or they don’t. People from T14 schools with ties get jobs in Miami. Just remember that there are a handful of jobs in Miami so the competition is high.

Common wisdom on TLS (just search "Miami") about Miami biglaw is that there are less than 20 SA positions in the city. That's just false. And I already said that its an upstream battle.

[dudeknows]

Especially when the alternative is just retaking a dumb standardized test.

And then going to a school where you'll graduate with 200K+ in debt, just to make sure that you can land a job that most people on here apparently can't stand for more than 3 years. TLS is great, but it has a ridiculously strong bias towards T14s while simultaneously trashing the biglaw life style. OP has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP to both schools, other than time, what exactly is he or she risking? I would take a full-ride from a school which still gives you a chance to achieve your goals, over a school that will ensure your pre-law-school goals but at the cost of crippling debt. Of course, if OP crushes the LSAT on a re-take and can manage a T14 with less than 100K debt, OP should take it.

But we all know that most people don't know what they are talking about before they go to law school. Not to mention that most people (at least on this forum) also can't stand biglaw for any significant amount of time.

[Npret]

Especially when the alternative is just retaking a dumb standardized test.

And then going to a school where you'll graduate with 200K+ in debt, just to make sure that you can land a job that most people on here apparently can't stand for more than 3 years. TLS is great, but it has a ridiculously strong bias towards T14s while simultaneously trashing the biglaw life style. OP has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP to both schools, other than time, what exactly is he or she risking? I would take a full-ride from a school which still gives you a chance to achieve your goals, over a school that will ensure your pre-law-school goals but at the cost of crippling debt. Of course, if OP crushes the LSAT on a re-take and can manage a T14 with less than 100K debt, OP should take it.

But we all know that most people don't know what they are talking about before they go to law school. Not to mention that most people (at least on this forum) also can't stand biglaw for any significant amount of time.

We don’t know OPs stats.
I have told OP several times to broaden their job goals. No one has said OP has to go deeply in debt at a T14.