Seriously reconsider

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princetonlawgrad

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:14 pm

redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:What a sad projection. Thousands of lawyers from TT, TTT and TTTT get jobs every year. I can't believe there are intelligent people that listen to this.


It's still pretty bad at some schools. Going back to George Mason, notice a few things.

The % of graduates in full-time jobs requiring a bar license grew from 49.4% in 2013 to 64.7% in 2016. This was undoubtedly a result of the school's decision to reduce class sizes, which shrunk from 250 in 2013 to 125 in 2016.

But then they increased class size in 2017 from 125 to 150. That caused the % in full-time bar license jobs to fall from 64.7% to 60.5%. Was 64.7% too high for the school's administrators or something? Too many graduates getting real lawyer jobs? (I'm picking on George Mason but I selected them randomly. I bet you'd see the same thing at other schools.)

This relationship between class size and employment stats is particularly important for people entering law school in 2018. Reports show a lot of people took the LSAT last year. You could see huge entering classes in 2018 and really bad employment statistics in 2021.

I would also like OP to see if he can roughly confirm the law school transparency stats for his 2018 graduating class (which will come out next year). I don't think the schools are lying, but you know trust and verify and all that.


Using the employment statistic of LST as anything besides a general guide is a mistake. It's really tough to understand how people who are either law students or lawyers, make the logical leap from "X% chance to be employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation" to "X% chance of ever becoming a practicing attorney."

There are dozens of reasons why someone may not be employed as a full-time lawyer 9 months after graduation. Sometimes you need to lower your standards. For many, it takes just that long to pass the bar which is often a requirement before applying to certain legal jobs. In addition, many government jobs have law clerks who work at least a year until transitioning into full-time.

Anyone that thinks reading a stat sheet is an accurate picture of the legal market is seriously misguided. All it takes is one summer internship to develop one personal relationship which leads to a job offer. This happens with dozens of students graduating from local or regional schools who developed these connections in their local area while in law school. "It's all about who you know" applies to law just like every other field. Based on OP's post, it's not hard to see why he/she failed to develop such a relationship.

The really sad part about OP's post is that he/she is obviously the type of person who has zero connection to reality. To think it's somehow easier to just find blue collar job and support themselves or a family, shows he/she has probably never worked a day in their life. A bachelors today is the equivalent of a high school degree 30 years ago. Do you think the average American doesn't have debt? Has it even entered OP's mind that many of those careers' salaries max out at what an attorney would make within three years?

It's all about perspective and OP's is so skewed it's mind blowing. For some people, struggling with debt for years or having to search for a job for more than 9 months (oh the horror!) is a better option than working some crap job for the next four decades. If OP ever had a regular job for any significant time period, he/she would understand this.

To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. Here's a truth the stat sheet doesn't tell you, if you graduate law school and are determined to become a lawyer, you will be. You might have to sacrifice your grand delusions of biglaw and drive a Honda for a couple of years. It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts. But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.

redmachine

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby redmachine » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:38 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:
redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:What a sad projection. Thousands of lawyers from TT, TTT and TTTT get jobs every year. I can't believe there are intelligent people that listen to this.


It's still pretty bad at some schools. Going back to George Mason, notice a few things.

The % of graduates in full-time jobs requiring a bar license grew from 49.4% in 2013 to 64.7% in 2016. This was undoubtedly a result of the school's decision to reduce class sizes, which shrunk from 250 in 2013 to 125 in 2016.

But then they increased class size in 2017 from 125 to 150. That caused the % in full-time bar license jobs to fall from 64.7% to 60.5%. Was 64.7% too high for the school's administrators or something? Too many graduates getting real lawyer jobs? (I'm picking on George Mason but I selected them randomly. I bet you'd see the same thing at other schools.)

This relationship between class size and employment stats is particularly important for people entering law school in 2018. Reports show a lot of people took the LSAT last year. You could see huge entering classes in 2018 and really bad employment statistics in 2021.

I would also like OP to see if he can roughly confirm the law school transparency stats for his 2018 graduating class (which will come out next year). I don't think the schools are lying, but you know trust and verify and all that.


Using the employment statistic of LST as anything besides a general guide is a mistake. It's really tough to understand how people who are either law students or lawyers, make the logical leap from "X% chance to be employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation" to "X% chance of ever becoming a practicing attorney."

There are dozens of reasons why someone may not be employed as a full-time lawyer 9 months after graduation. Sometimes you need to lower your standards. For many, it takes just that long to pass the bar which is often a requirement before applying to certain legal jobs. In addition, many government jobs have law clerks who work at least a year until transitioning into full-time.

Anyone that thinks reading a stat sheet is an accurate picture of the legal market is seriously misguided. All it takes is one summer internship to develop one personal relationship which leads to a job offer. This happens with dozens of students graduating from local or regional schools who developed these connections in their local area while in law school. "It's all about who you know" applies to law just like every other field. Based on OP's post, it's not hard to see why he/she failed to develop such a relationship.

The really sad part about OP's post is that he/she is obviously the type of person who has zero connection to reality. To think it's somehow easier to just find blue collar job and support themselves or a family, shows he/she has probably never worked a day in their life. A bachelors today is the equivalent of a high school degree 30 years ago. Do you think the average American doesn't have debt? Has it even entered OP's mind that many of those careers' salaries max out at what an attorney would make within three years?

It's all about perspective and OP's is so skewed it's mind blowing. For some people, struggling with debt for years or having to search for a job for more than 9 months (oh the horror!) is a better option than working some crap job for the next four decades. If OP ever had a regular job for any significant time period, he/she would understand this.

To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. Here's a truth the stat sheet doesn't tell you, if you graduate law school and are determined to become a lawyer, you will be. You might have to sacrifice your grand delusions of biglaw and drive a Honda for a couple of years. It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts. But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.


The problem with this, is that your hustling mentality is not appropriate for what should be a respectable profession. There's way too much competition for work, on every level. It's not just competition for entry level jobs, it's everywhere, including competition between biglaw partners chasing clients. I've seen hungry "prestigious" lawyers do despicable things for money or a relationships with a powerful person. The root cause of all of this, is that law school puts out too many lawyers, and they do this because they put their greed above other more important principles.

Honestly, between OP and you, I would choose them to represent me and I'd prefer to have them acting as prosecutor, judge or whatever. But OP is probably going to leave the law and someone like you will stay, doing all those grimy and dirty things with dreams of being the next Michael Cohen.

princetonlawgrad

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:31 pm

redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:
redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:What a sad projection. Thousands of lawyers from TT, TTT and TTTT get jobs every year. I can't believe there are intelligent people that listen to this.


Honestly, between OP and you, I would choose them to represent me and I'd prefer to have them acting as prosecutor, judge or whatever. But OP is probably going to leave the law and someone like you will stay, doing all those grimy and dirty things with dreams of being the next Michael Cohen.


TIL working hard to succeed = corruption. I didn't think there was a more off-base viewpoint than OP's but you have him/her beat by a mile. Good luck to both of you, you're going to need it with those attitudes.

redmachine

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby redmachine » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:57 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:
redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:
redmachine wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:What a sad projection. Thousands of lawyers from TT, TTT and TTTT get jobs every year. I can't believe there are intelligent people that listen to this.


Honestly, between OP and you, I would choose them to represent me and I'd prefer to have them acting as prosecutor, judge or whatever. But OP is probably going to leave the law and someone like you will stay, doing all those grimy and dirty things with dreams of being the next Michael Cohen.


TIL working hard to succeed = corruption. I didn't think there was a more off-base viewpoint than OP's but you have him/her beat by a mile. Good luck to both of you, you're going to need it with those attitudes.


OP did work hard. They graduated cum laude. I know people like you. You're hungry and you'll do or say whatever it takes, and never complain. If anyone wants a tool, or a useful idiot, you're there. You actually might do OK in law if the right people find you. I just prefer people like OP.
Last edited by redmachine on Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nixy

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:14 pm

what on earth has happened to this thread

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby totesTheGoat » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:26 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:Using the employment statistic of LST as anything besides a general guide is a mistake. It's really tough to understand how people who are either law students or lawyers, make the logical leap from "X% chance to be employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation" to "X% chance of ever becoming a practicing attorney."

There are dozens of reasons why someone may not be employed as a full-time lawyer 9 months after graduation. Sometimes you need to lower your standards. For many, it takes just that long to pass the bar which is often a requirement before applying to certain legal jobs. In addition, many government jobs have law clerks who work at least a year until transitioning into full-time.


Here's the problem. For a 0L who has no idea what it takes to get a legal job, knowing that you're potentially gonna have to scrape and fight just to get a job let alone a good job is valuable information. Most 0Ls naively start the process thinking that they just need to suffer through 3 years and get decent grades and those biglaw bucks will flow into their pockets. The LST reports knock the shine off of that fantasy.


Anyone that thinks reading a stat sheet is an accurate picture of the legal market is seriously misguided. All it takes is one summer internship to develop one personal relationship which leads to a job offer. This happens with dozens of students graduating from local or regional schools who developed these connections in their local area while in law school. "It's all about who you know" applies to law just like every other field. Based on OP's post, it's not hard to see why he/she failed to develop such a relationship.


Yes, because networking is an automatic job offer. :roll: Besides, I trust the stats much more than I trust some rando on the internet going all "well aycktually." Heck, to toss in my anecdotal experience, many of my law school classmates got absolutely hammered by reality when graduation came around. They had a decent (if not great) GPA, they knew attorneys, they hustled like none other, but they still ended up having to work as staff attorneys while trying to find a full-time gig. Some of them have eventually gotten a full-time legal job. Others are still looking. Some have given up and are back doing whatever they did before law school.

The really sad part about OP's post is that he/she is obviously the type of person who has zero connection to reality. To think it's somehow easier to just find blue collar job and support themselves or a family, shows he/she has probably never worked a day in their life. A bachelors today is the equivalent of a high school degree 30 years ago. Do you think the average American doesn't have debt? Has it even entered OP's mind that many of those careers' salaries max out at what an attorney would make within three years?


My bachelor's degree got my a job making $65k as a 23 year old. I know plumbers and electricians that clear 6 figures each year. I know people who started landscaping companies and clear 7 figures a year. I also know plenty of folks who work in the trades and their only debt is a mortgage (if that). There's plenty of money to be made in the trades, but you have to hustle, just like in law. Law simply gives you a better chance at making good money like that. You paint this insane picture of law school or squalor. There's a big happy medium where people who didn't go to law school make a decent living.

It's all about perspective and OP's is so skewed it's mind blowing. For some people, struggling with debt for years or having to search for a job for more than 9 months (oh the horror!) is a better option than working some crap job for the next four decades. If OP ever had a regular job for any significant time period, he/she would understand this


You sound like a disgruntled barista. There are plenty of ways to get out of a crap job without taking out a quarter million in debt to go to a school with a coin flip's chance of getting a full-time legal job at graduation. Only a lunatic would recommend replacing a crappy job by taking out a breathtaking amount of debt that essentially locks them into a profession that is known for creating and attracting sociopaths, addicts, and generally unhappy people.


To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. Here's a truth the stat sheet doesn't tell you, if you graduate law school and are determined to become a lawyer, you will be. You might have to sacrifice your grand delusions of biglaw and drive a Honda for a couple of years. It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts. But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.


Lol, there it is. "Follow your dreams, never give up, and you can be whatever you want!!!1!111!!!" You don't think that 0Ls should be informed about the difficulties they may face when they graduate from law school? Is the fact that they may be unemployed for a while after graduating not worth them noting?

I'll never understand the "follow your dreams" crowd.

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hoos89

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:54 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. .... It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts.


Spending three years of your life and accumulating six figures of debt only to struggle for a year or more after graduation to get a job paying ~$50k is not a good outcome. Not sure how thinking that means I lack a decent

princetonlawgrad wrote:But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.


Not really. There are more legal graduates than legal jobs each year. Also part of OP's point is that the jobs that are potentially available don't pay well enough to justify the time and monetary investment in law school.

princetonlawgrad

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:21 pm

hoos89 wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. .... It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts.


Spending three years of your life and accumulating six figures of debt only to struggle for a year or more after graduation to get a job paying ~$50k is not a good outcome. Not sure how thinking that means I lack a decent

princetonlawgrad wrote:But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.


Not really. There are more legal graduates than legal jobs each year. Also part of OP's point is that the jobs that are potentially available don't pay well enough to justify the time and monetary investment in law school.


I understand you can create a hypothetical salary to reinforce your position and whether it's "a good outcome" is completely subjective, a point that is just hard for some people to understand.

I'm going to reply with my own hypothetical which includes accurate statistics that could fit OP's comment in order to refute your response. OP says he went to a "top 40 and graduated cum laude." So lets pick William & Mary, ranked #37 by US News.

According to Law School Transparency, the Bible for this website:

> 76.4%% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.

Somehow, a cum laude is not part of the 76.4%. Could that mean maybe he is lacking in some other area, such as the ability to make connections as I stated in my previous comment? Doesn't seem far-fetched. But lets say he did get a job...

> Employed - Salary Reported $50,500 (25th Percentile) $64,650 (50th Percentile) $102,500 (75th Percentile) $84,407(Mean)

> Debt at Repayment - $161,116 (with 25% discount)

It is not unreasonable to assume OP could have graduated, made the average salary of $84,407 with $161,116 of debt. Please keep in mind this is the first year (salaries go up as you work more).

According to LST, his monthly payment on a 20 year plan would be $1,208. I won't bother to include other factors which can reduce this overtime, I don't need them to make my point.

So, nine months after graduation, OP is making $84,407 a year with monthly payments of $1,208.

$84,407 a year is about $7,000.00 per month.

$7,000 - $1,208 = $5,782 a month.

The median wage in the United States during 2016 is estimated to be $30,533.31 per year. (full time and part time)

So that would be: half the people earn under $2,544 per month, and half over.

SO TO RECAP:

IF OP OBTAINED A JOB LIKE 76% OF HIS CLASSMATES, CAME OUT WITH $161,116 OF DEBT AND MADE THE MEDIAN SALARY OF $84,407 A YEAR...

...HE WOULD BE ABLE TO PAY OFF HIS MONTHLY DEBT AND STILL MAKE TWICE AS MUCH AS THE AVERAGE AMERICAN....

...ALL WITHIN 9 MONTHS OF GRADUATING LAW SCHOOL.

PLEASE, GO AHEAD AND TELL ME HOW THAT IS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT, I'LL WAIT.

princetonlawgrad

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:26 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:Using the employment statistic of LST as anything besides a general guide is a mistake. It's really tough to understand how people who are either law students or lawyers, make the logical leap from "X% chance to be employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation" to "X% chance of ever becoming a practicing attorney."

There are dozens of reasons why someone may not be employed as a full-time lawyer 9 months after graduation. Sometimes you need to lower your standards. For many, it takes just that long to pass the bar which is often a requirement before applying to certain legal jobs. In addition, many government jobs have law clerks who work at least a year until transitioning into full-time.


Here's the problem. For a 0L who has no idea what it takes to get a legal job, knowing that you're potentially gonna have to scrape and fight just to get a job let alone a good job is valuable information. Most 0Ls naively start the process thinking that they just need to suffer through 3 years and get decent grades and those biglaw bucks will flow into their pockets. The LST reports knock the shine off of that fantasy.


Anyone that thinks reading a stat sheet is an accurate picture of the legal market is seriously misguided. All it takes is one summer internship to develop one personal relationship which leads to a job offer. This happens with dozens of students graduating from local or regional schools who developed these connections in their local area while in law school. "It's all about who you know" applies to law just like every other field. Based on OP's post, it's not hard to see why he/she failed to develop such a relationship.


Yes, because networking is an automatic job offer. :roll: Besides, I trust the stats much more than I trust some rando on the internet going all "well aycktually." Heck, to toss in my anecdotal experience, many of my law school classmates got absolutely hammered by reality when graduation came around. They had a decent (if not great) GPA, they knew attorneys, they hustled like none other, but they still ended up having to work as staff attorneys while trying to find a full-time gig. Some of them have eventually gotten a full-time legal job. Others are still looking. Some have given up and are back doing whatever they did before law school.

The really sad part about OP's post is that he/she is obviously the type of person who has zero connection to reality. To think it's somehow easier to just find blue collar job and support themselves or a family, shows he/she has probably never worked a day in their life. A bachelors today is the equivalent of a high school degree 30 years ago. Do you think the average American doesn't have debt? Has it even entered OP's mind that many of those careers' salaries max out at what an attorney would make within three years?


My bachelor's degree got my a job making $65k as a 23 year old. I know plumbers and electricians that clear 6 figures each year. I know people who started landscaping companies and clear 7 figures a year. I also know plenty of folks who work in the trades and their only debt is a mortgage (if that). There's plenty of money to be made in the trades, but you have to hustle, just like in law. Law simply gives you a better chance at making good money like that. You paint this insane picture of law school or squalor. There's a big happy medium where people who didn't go to law school make a decent living.

It's all about perspective and OP's is so skewed it's mind blowing. For some people, struggling with debt for years or having to search for a job for more than 9 months (oh the horror!) is a better option than working some crap job for the next four decades. If OP ever had a regular job for any significant time period, he/she would understand this


You sound like a disgruntled barista. There are plenty of ways to get out of a crap job without taking out a quarter million in debt to go to a school with a coin flip's chance of getting a full-time legal job at graduation. Only a lunatic would recommend replacing a crappy job by taking out a breathtaking amount of debt that essentially locks them into a profession that is known for creating and attracting sociopaths, addicts, and generally unhappy people.


To many adults with a decent perspective on life, the journey to becoming a lawyer might entail more than a three-four year transition and includes set-backs and failures. Here's a truth the stat sheet doesn't tell you, if you graduate law school and are determined to become a lawyer, you will be. You might have to sacrifice your grand delusions of biglaw and drive a Honda for a couple of years. It might take more than nine months and multiple bar attempts. But the jobs are there if you're willing to do more than give up and project your failure onto others.


Lol, there it is. "Follow your dreams, never give up, and you can be whatever you want!!!1!111!!!" You don't think that 0Ls should be informed about the difficulties they may face when they graduate from law school? Is the fact that they may be unemployed for a while after graduating not worth them noting?

I'll never understand the "follow your dreams" crowd.


It's not surprising you cannot grasp an abstract position such as "follow your dreams" so here is a statistical one:

OP says he went to a "top 40 and graduated cum laude." So lets pick William & Mary, ranked #37 by US News.

According to Law School Transparency, the Bible for this website:

> 76.4%% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.

Somehow, a cum laude is not part of the 76.4%. Could that mean maybe he is lacking in some other area, such as the ability to make connections as I stated in my previous comment? Doesn't seem far-fetched. But lets say he did get a job...

> Employed - Salary Reported $50,500 (25th Percentile) $64,650 (50th Percentile) $102,500 (75th Percentile) $84,407(Mean)

> Debt at Repayment - $161,116 (with 25% discount)

It is not unreasonable to assume OP could have graduated, made the average salary of $84,407 with $161,116 of debt. Please keep in mind this is the first year (salaries go up as you work more).

According to LST, his monthly payment on a 20 year plan would be $1,208. I won't bother to include other factors which can reduce this overtime, I don't need them to make my point.

So, nine months after graduation, OP is making $84,407 a year with monthly payments of $1,208.

$84,407 a year is about $7,000.00 per month.

$7,000 - $1,208 = $5,782 a month.

The median wage in the United States during 2016 is estimated to be $30,533.31 per year. (full time and part time)


So that would be: half the people earn under $2,544 per month, and half over.

SO TO RECAP:

IF OP OBTAINED A JOB LIKE 76% OF HIS CLASSMATES, CAME OUT WITH $161,116 OF DEBT AND MADE THE MEDIAN SALARY OF $84,407 A YEAR...

...HE WOULD BE ABLE TO PAY OF HIS MONTHLY DEBT AND STILL MAKE TWICE AS MUCH AS THE AVERAGE AMERICAN MAKES....

...ALL WITHIN 9 MONTHS OF GRADUATING LAW SCHOOL.

PLEASE, GO AHEAD AND TELL ME HOW THAT IS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT, I'LL WAIT.

nixy

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:34 pm

1) the mean is an artificial number. The mean of 1,1,1,1,1,10,10,10,10,10 is 5.5. None of the numbers in that range is 5.5. You don't have any evidence that anyone actually makes the mean.

2) $84,407 isn't $7000/month because you have to pay taxes, social security, insurance, etc.

3) pretty sure a 25% discount is still going to be more debt than that.

I mean yes, you can make up numbers that result in a good outcome. Of course a good outcome is a good investment. But you're seriously just making up scenarios. I can make up worse ones. So what?

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby redmachine » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:10 pm

princestonlawgrad, your numbers are wrong because (a) no one said W&M was a scam school (according to LST, 77% of its grads get full-time jobs requiring a bar license and its tuition is relatively cheap at $32,000), (b) the student loan payment comes out of after-tax income not pre-tax income so redo that calculation using a 30% combined federal and state tax rate at $80,000 and a lower tax rate for the lower salary, and (c) most importantly, the average salary for a college graduate is not $30,000 it's $50,000. http://time.com/money/4777074/college-g ... ge-salary/

On this last point, since you keep attacking OP for not networking enough, did you make $50,000 a year after graduating undergrad? If not why are you hiding from this failure by going to law school instead of networking and doing all the things you're telling OP to do?

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hoos89

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:27 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:
It's not surprising you cannot grasp an abstract position such as "follow your dreams" so here is a statistical one:

OP says he went to a "top 40 and graduated cum laude." So lets pick William & Mary, ranked #37 by US News.

According to Law School Transparency, the Bible for this website:

> 76.4%% of this school's graduates were employed and reported a salary.

Somehow, a cum laude is not part of the 76.4%. Could that mean maybe he is lacking in some other area, such as the ability to make connections as I stated in my previous comment? Doesn't seem far-fetched. But lets say he did get a job...

> Employed - Salary Reported $50,500 (25th Percentile) $64,650 (50th Percentile) $102,500 (75th Percentile) $84,407(Mean)

> Debt at Repayment - $161,116 (with 25% discount)

It is not unreasonable to assume OP could have graduated, made the average salary of $84,407 with $161,116 of debt. Please keep in mind this is the first year (salaries go up as you work more).

According to LST, his monthly payment on a 20 year plan would be $1,208. I won't bother to include other factors which can reduce this overtime, I don't need them to make my point.

So, nine months after graduation, OP is making $84,407 a year with monthly payments of $1,208.

$84,407 a year is about $7,000.00 per month.

$7,000 - $1,208 = $5,782 a month.

The median wage in the United States during 2016 is estimated to be $30,533.31 per year. (full time and part time)


So that would be: half the people earn under $2,544 per month, and half over.

SO TO RECAP:

IF OP OBTAINED A JOB LIKE 76% OF HIS CLASSMATES, CAME OUT WITH $161,116 OF DEBT AND MADE THE MEDIAN SALARY OF $84,407 A YEAR...

...HE WOULD BE ABLE TO PAY OF HIS MONTHLY DEBT AND STILL MAKE TWICE AS MUCH AS THE AVERAGE AMERICAN MAKES....

...ALL WITHIN 9 MONTHS OF GRADUATING LAW SCHOOL.

PLEASE, GO AHEAD AND TELL ME HOW THAT IS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT, I'LL WAIT.


You're confusing median and mean. The MEAN salary is $84,407, but the MEDIAN salary is only $64,650, and that's the median of the 76.4% of the class that reported their salary. I think it's safe to assume that the median of the entire class is significantly lower. Something you seem not to understand is that entry-level legal salaries are bimodal: there are jobs that pay a lot and jobs that pay a little, but not many in between. I doubt there were very many W&M grads actually making~$85k. The relatively few W&M grads who got biglaw jobs were making up to $190k, while every other job pays more like $40-$60k.

Also, your logic is flawed here. Anyone attending law school must be a college graduate. The relevant comparison is not what the median American makes, but what the median college graduate makes three years after graduation (because you're foregoing three years of experience by going to law school). According to this article (https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/comp ... s-of-2018/) the average salary for c/o 2017 bachelor's degrees was $50,516. Three years in you could expect that pay to be somewhat higher....let's say $55k.

So to compare: law student goes to school for 3 years, racks up $161,116 of debt and made a median salary of less than $64,650 9 months after graduation. I would guess that the true median salary might actually be less than $55,000 given that 23.6% of graduates did not have reported salaries, not to mention that half of students earn less even than the median salary. Non-law student works for 3 years, earns ~$153,000 in that time and has a salary of $55,000 by the time the law student graduates. Shouldn't be hard to see why law school is the wrong choice here.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:58 pm

If he/she attended W&M, 76% of OP's class obtained a job. It is very plausible to assume he/she could have made the mean, $85k with a monthly payment of about $1,200. Except for personal preference, there is absolutely no possible way you can justify that is not enough to live on (and comfortably for many). In fact, it is still more than the average American at 50k. That. is. also. within. the. first. year. Take into account how much a person will make in two or three and your position vanishes.

Taking a step back, what OP and you are implying is that out of the 10s of thousands of people applying to law school, about 10% are making a decision that is correct for them. 90% are too stupid to figure out what you geniuses know for a fact applies to everyone. That shows a total disconnect from reality and a level of narcissism that I have trouble comprehending. You and OP must have zero connection with the outside world where lawyers from all schools find jobs and practice every year. Absolutely astonishing.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:26 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:It is very plausible to assume he/she could have made the mean, $85k with a monthly payment of about $1,200.

Dude, you have completely ignored the point that the average does not reflect actual salaries reported by those grads. What makes it very plausible to assume that salary, aside from the fact that you want it to be plausible? Spell it out for us.

Taking a step back, what OP and you are implying is that out of the 10s of thousands of people applying to law school, about 10% are making a decision that is correct for them. 90% are too stupid to figure out what you geniuses know for a fact applies to everyone. That shows a total disconnect from reality and a level of narcissism that I have trouble comprehending. You and OP must have zero connection with the outside world where lawyers from all schools find jobs and practice every year. Absolutely astonishing.

Hyperbole doesn't make your argument convincing. No one has claimed 10% or 90%. If you put numbers in people's mouths, of course their arguments are incorrect.

Yes, lawyers from all schools find jobs and practice every year. Even if a school had only one grad get a job, that statement would be true, but that wouldn't make going to that law school a good investment.

Finally, yes, there may be issues with how the OP approached their job search (I have no idea and it's not the only possibility, but sure, it's a possibility). But if that's case, it's also going to be the case for lots of people who apply/enter law school. Do you really think everyone who applies/attends is in a position accurately to assess how skilled they are at getting a job in more marginal circumstances?

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:49 pm

redmachine wrote:princestonlawgrad, your numbers are wrong because (a) no one said W&M was a scam school (according to LST, 77% of its grads get full-time jobs requiring a bar license and its tuition is relatively cheap at $32,000), (b) the student loan payment comes out of after-tax income not pre-tax income so redo that calculation using a 30% combined federal and state tax rate at $80,000 and a lower tax rate for the lower salary, and (c) most importantly, the average salary for a college graduate is not $30,000 it's $50,000. http://time.com/money/4777074/college-g ... ge-salary/

On this last point, since you keep attacking OP for not networking enough, did you make $50,000 a year after graduating undergrad? If not why are you hiding from this failure by going to law school instead of networking and doing all the things you're telling OP to do?


Where did anyone mention scam school? What OP stated:

> graduated cum laude at a T40 and can’t even get a law clerk job for after the bar

I simply chose a t40 school. So, (a) is moot. (b) as I stated there are methods I did not include that can help lower those payments. (c) even at the average American's 50k, OP would still be making more.

Why do I keep attacking OP for his possible lack of networking?

Because networking is a significant part of life, no matter the field. No matter the number US News assigns to your LS, working for a firm during an externship or SA while proving your worth, can provide direct, tangible evidence you are capable and a good fit. The employer gets to see you with his/her own two eyes. Gets to envision you working there after graduation or writes a recommendation you can use for another job.

Your second part regarding myself I don't follow. But I'll give you just a little bit of background about myself and maybe it'll provide some insight into my radical thinking on why I disagree that anyone outside the top 10% in their class at a t14 is making a bad decision.

6 years ago I dropped out of college my junior year due to Epilepsy. After a year, since then, I've worked in law as a paralegal in a major east coast city. 2 in crim defense and 3 in workers' comp defense (very different fields). I've always known I wanted and will go to LS. Now I'm finally going. So you could say I've been "data-mining" for 6 years.

Over these 6 years in two different fields of law, I've gotten to know dozens of attorneys including three partners at the mid-size firm I currently work for (~60 attorneys). Out of those 60 attorneys, zero went to t14 and about 10-15 t40. Many of them are less than 3 years out. The partners have been hiring lawyers for over 3 decades, a source that I put more stock in over anonymous forums and a stat sheet. When they hire someone new, I like to ask them "why'd you hire them? What school did they go to?" The answers to those two questions are almost always the same:

1. Work history above all else and their interview if they have little to no work history.

2. In response to what school they went to, 50/50: "I don't remember."

When I discuss where I should go with the attorneys I work for directly, they almost always say: "wherever the least amount of debt! After your first job no one gives a shit about where you went to law school. Who do you think the partners are going to keep, a guy from a local t3 who crushes his billing hours or a t14 who struggles?"

This is completely anecdotal evidence. Would this apply to biglaw? Of course not! But this is fucking workers' comp and it's easy as shit and pays well. That is the overarching point, the vast majority of us will practice in other fields and attend other schools. This website doesn't understand that because it is skewed massively towards the top schools and most "advice" comes from reading a stat sheet.

For 6 years I've seen with my own two eyes people who were not in the top 10% of the top 14 schools practice law and enjoy their lives. People who have six figure debt but found a job and live a modest life at the beginning of their law careers. OP's post is simply not an accurate picture on the real world.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:57 pm

I actually think the OP is overstating matters because they haven't yet passed the bar, and lots of people at lots of schools don't get jobs until after that happens. But I also think you're overstating matters, because literally no one has suggested that you have to be top 10% at a T14 to succeed. In fact everyone here would advise applicants to go to the school that offers the least debt with the best options for their goals. If their goal *is* biglaw - which doesn't describe everyone, but does describe some - then that's often a tricky balance to strike.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby princetonlawgrad » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:30 pm

nixy wrote:
princetonlawgrad wrote:It is very plausible to assume he/she could have made the mean, $85k with a monthly payment of about $1,200.

Dude, you have completely ignored the point that the average does not reflect actual salaries reported by those grads. What makes it very plausible to assume that salary, aside from the fact that you want it to be plausible? Spell it out for us.

Taking a step back, what OP and you are implying is that out of the 10s of thousands of people applying to law school, about 10% are making a decision that is correct for them. 90% are too stupid to figure out what you geniuses know for a fact applies to everyone. That shows a total disconnect from reality and a level of narcissism that I have trouble comprehending. You and OP must have zero connection with the outside world where lawyers from all schools find jobs and practice every year. Absolutely astonishing.

Hyperbole doesn't make your argument convincing. No one has claimed 10% or 90%. If you put numbers in people's mouths, of course their arguments are incorrect.

Yes, lawyers from all schools find jobs and practice every year. Even if a school had only one grad get a job, that statement would be true, but that wouldn't make going to that law school a good investment.

Finally, yes, there may be issues with how the OP approached their job search (I have no idea and it's not the only possibility, but sure, it's a possibility). But if that's case, it's also going to be the case for lots of people who apply/enter law school. Do you really think everyone who applies/attends is in a position accurately to assess how skilled they are at getting a job in more marginal circumstances?




The number of law grads last year: 39,432. 10% of that and total of t14 = ~20%. Wow, massive difference. You're only dismissing 80% of the people. Jesus.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:45 pm

no one. has. said. you. have. to. go. to. a. T14.

also you continue to ignore the point about the mean salary.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby redmachine » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:11 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:6 years ago I dropped out of college my junior year due to Epilepsy. After a year, since then, I've worked in law as a paralegal in a major east coast city. 2 in crim defense and 3 in workers' comp defense (very different fields). I've always known I wanted and will go to LS. Now I'm finally going. So you could say I've been "data-mining" for 6 years.



Oh you should have said this before as this changes everything. if you've been working at a paralegal for six years the risk is way lower for you. You will have an early advantage in law school because you already know that "lawyerly" way of thinking and writing. You'll jump to the head of the line in employment due to your experience. Actually, you could just start your own law firm. You're also not going to hate the work, because you've been doing it and observing it for six years.

This looks good for you. Good luck.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:47 pm

Are you aware of the concept of "survivorship bias"? By working at a law firm you're exclusively meeting people who have done reasonably well. You're not encountering all of their classmates who were unable to find jobs as attorneys. Of course there are people from every law school who get jobs, but there are plenty of people (most people at some schools) who will not. The question 8s whether the odds of getting a sufficiently well paying job are worth the cost of attendance and foregoing 3 years of earnings and career advancement.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby totesTheGoat » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:52 pm

princetonlawgrad wrote:For 6 years I've seen with my own two eyes people who were not in the top 10% of the top 14 schools practice law and enjoy their lives. People who have six figure debt but found a job and live a modest life at the beginning of their law careers. OP's post is simply not an accurate picture on the real world.



What you seem to be missing despite multiple people in this thread spelling it out in neon colors is this. Just because people make it work and end up okay doesn't mean that it's a good idea for others to follow in their path. It has nothing to do with your strawman 10% BS. It has nothing to do with your friend and your coworker and that classmate you see on LinkedIn. It has everything to do with the fact that a substantial majority of 0Ls walk into their first day of law school thinking that they just need to hustle three years and then they get a cushy corner office and a $190k salary.

You add to my point by talking about all of the networking and hustle required to land a job. You add to my point by talking about a (flawed) hypothetical with $85k salary and $160k loans and comparing it to the highly biased $30k average income (full-time and part-time, as if a 60+hr/week legal job is even remotely comparable to working 20hrs/week flipping burgers).

My point is very simple, law school will burn you if you go in without minimizing the risk and maximizing the potential reward. That's why people advocate for going to the best school with the lowest costs, because when life goes sideways between now and 3 years from now, you don't want to be stuck holding a non-bankruptable $250k debt.

Oh, and get out of here with this 20 year repayment BS. If you're paying for law school in your 40s after going to law school in your 20s, you're not a success story.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Itwasascam » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:29 am

if you can drop out before the refund date for tuition passes, DO IT

cum laude at top 40 school and still NO JOB

I'm not picky at all and have applied to every job posting, linkedin/indeed/craigslist

THERE ARE NO JOBS

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Duckhat

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Duckhat » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:04 am

Synapse2018 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Synapse2018 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Your advice is bad because it puts the message out that people can make a bad decision and then hustle their way to success. You don’t know what you’re talking about in the legal world.


Only 62% of law school graduates manage to secure a full time job that requires a JD 9 months after graduation. That leaves 38% who your advice didn't work for.

The OP made the bad decision BEFORE going to law school by assuming the debt despite #s like that 62%. He's now arguing that his degree is useless, which it is not. There are thousands out there right now struggling and fighting for that license. That 38% could be reduced greatly if people like you give up on the "corporate or nothing" mentality.

While not everyone is well-equipped to run a business, it's not rocket science. You got through law school. You can figure out how to create a listing on Google Places and Yelp. While you may not earn a substantial living this way, you will gain experience and earn SOME money utilizing your degree and license in a meaningful way instead of sitting around and waiting around for that contract that will never come.

There's no difference between the "legal" world and the "real world" when it comes to personal responsibility and business management. Anyone attending or planning to attend law school MUST consider that finding a corporate job may not work out. You got a 62% chance of landing that corporate job. What if you end up in that 38%? Are you going to give up like the OP or will you keep working as hard as you did to go through law school to earn a reputation and become financially independent?

Oh my god, what are you talking about? Why are you assuming none of the 38% actually tried going solo? Why are you calling the 62% “corporate jobs” when “corporate” jobs are only a subset of legal jobs out there? I am completely baffled by where your understanding of the legal profession comes from.

38% don’t end up with jobs because the legal market is oversaturated (even if distribution can be wonky). Not because they didn’t “hustle” enough. Stop blaming the unemployed.


A corporate job is a job working for a corporation. It is not equivalent to practicing corporate law. That shouldn't have to be explained.

Given that the statistic cited is 9 months out of graduation, your theory that they've tried to go solo isn't applicable. It takes longer than that to build something meaningful for yourself. The market may be over saturated but so is just about every other market.

I never blamed anyone for being unemployed. I even stated that was my own situation and what it took to get from that to being independent and financially successful was primarily a change of mindset. You have to first believe in yourself to be a successful entrepreneur. It seems to me like that's where the difference of opinion really lies here.



Wait so you assume that 62% are employed by some corporation while the rest are unemployed? Boy, I bet you're doing great on LR sections.



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