Seriously reconsider

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Itwasascam

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Seriously reconsider

Postby Itwasascam » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:37 pm

Finding an entry level position w/o a T14 degree, excellent grades (top 10%) at any other school, or prior connections is extremely difficult.

I graduated cum laude at a T40 and can’t even get a law clerk job for after the bar

I know several people from my school who were top 20% and still don’t have a job (graduated in may)


Don’t be a fucking moron and go into debt for what’s truly a useless degree. There’s a 90% chance you’ll regret it.

If you have a useless liberal arts degree, go back and get a useful degree or work

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hoos89

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Curious what school? Also it really isn't fair to lump schools in the 15-40 range together. Vandy c/o 2017 placed 67.0% in big law + AIII clerkship, while ASU placed 13.6%.

I'm all for advocating caution when deciding to attend law school, but I think it's important to set realistic expectations rather than just doom and gloom.

nixy

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:07 pm

When someone says T40 though they really mean ranked 40 (okay maybe 35-50), not Vandy or UT, or they'd just say T20.

And OP, it sucks, but also a lot of employers you're now looking at aren't going to hire till after you get bar results. It sucks getting there, but not having a job now isn't a sign that you won't get one. Keep plugging away.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:22 pm

nixy wrote:When someone says T40 though they really mean ranked 40 (okay maybe 35-50), not Vandy or UT, or they'd just say T20.

And OP, it sucks, but also a lot of employers you're now looking at aren't going to hire till after you get bar results. It sucks getting there, but not having a job now isn't a sign that you won't get one. Keep plugging away.


Was more pointing to this statement: Finding an entry level position w/o a T14 degree, excellent grades (top 10%) at any other school, or prior connections is extremely difficult.

My point is that his experience is not necessarily comparable to someone at one of the schools in the 15-25 range (plus BC and Fordham) that has BL+A3 placement in the 40-60% range (or 67% in Vandy's case).

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:52 pm

Oh got it, that's fair.

Itwasascam

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Itwasascam » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:44 pm

Just applied for a doc review job

Those of you making threads asking which tttt ttt or tt school you should go to need to find something else to do with your lives. There are no fucking jobs

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:12 pm

It would take less than a week to take a free youtube class on creating a wordpress website. After that, learn how to craft SEO articles and start creating pages on avvo, google places, yelp, etc.

You have a license to practice law. The only thing standing between you and good money is securing clients. You spent 3 years in law school. Spend a few weeks learning how to market your services online and get in front of eyeballs searching for your expertise. This is not rocket science.

Do you think an accountant or doctor opens an office and people just show up? It takes work to build a reputation and get referral business. I suggest OP starts ASAP.

For anybody else reading this, do not rely on corporations or the public legal system to put food on your table. ALWAYS look at your license as an opportunity to represent clients not as a piece of paper that gets you a guaranteed paycheck.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:42 pm

But attending law school teaches you very very very little about how actually to practice. Going solo isn't a magic solution.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:57 pm

nixy wrote:But attending law school teaches you very very very little about how actually to practice. Going solo isn't a magic solution.


You have to start somewhere. Having a license is the biggest hurdle to practicing. You don't need to take on cases that you can't handle. Within a few years, you'll have experience and a client base. You have to be proactive about making a living. You can't rely on anybody else in this world. Your personal interests don't usually align well with government or corporate interests anyway.

The placement and salary numbers law schools report are VERY skewed. You need to interpret the data and not accept it at face value BEFORE deciding what to spend on law school. If you took on massive debt to go to law school with the mentality that you'd land a guaranteed paycheck at the end, you make a financial mistake and you're going to have to live up to it now.

Anyone planning on attending law school needs to have a backup plan from day 1. If nobody is willing to give you a chance, give yourself one. Start learning how to invest in yourself and your personal brand. At the end of 3L, your options may be solo practice or McDonald's. Develop the skills you need to get clients to sign those retainers right from the get go. Those skills can often be more valuable than your legal skills.

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Dcc617

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:33 pm

Synapse, just curious, do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Based on your posts it doesn't seem like you do, and you're giving awful advice. I'm just curious if you're a 0L.

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hoos89

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby hoos89 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:26 pm

Dcc617 wrote:Synapse, just curious, do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Based on your posts it doesn't seem like you do, and you're giving awful advice. I'm just curious if you're a 0L.


Based on his post saying that he's taking the LSAT this November, I'd guess 0L.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Pneumonia » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:04 pm

Synapse2018 wrote:
nixy wrote:But attending law school teaches you very very very little about how actually to practice. Going solo isn't a magic solution.


You have to start somewhere. Having a license is the biggest hurdle to practicing. You don't need to take on cases that you can't handle. Within a few years, you'll have experience and a client base. You have to be proactive about making a living. You can't rely on anybody else in this world. Your personal interests don't usually align well with government or corporate interests anyway.

The placement and salary numbers law schools report are VERY skewed. You need to interpret the data and not accept it at face value BEFORE deciding what to spend on law school. If you took on massive debt to go to law school with the mentality that you'd land a guaranteed paycheck at the end, you make a financial mistake and you're going to have to live up to it now.

Anyone planning on attending law school needs to have a backup plan from day 1. If nobody is willing to give you a chance, give yourself one. Start learning how to invest in yourself and your personal brand. At the end of 3L, your options may be solo practice or McDonald's. Develop the skills you need to get clients to sign those retainers right from the get go. Those skills can often be more valuable than your legal skills.

All of this is awful advice.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:49 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
Synapse2018 wrote:
nixy wrote:But attending law school teaches you very very very little about how actually to practice. Going solo isn't a magic solution.


You have to start somewhere. Having a license is the biggest hurdle to practicing. You don't need to take on cases that you can't handle. Within a few years, you'll have experience and a client base. You have to be proactive about making a living. You can't rely on anybody else in this world. Your personal interests don't usually align well with government or corporate interests anyway.

The placement and salary numbers law schools report are VERY skewed. You need to interpret the data and not accept it at face value BEFORE deciding what to spend on law school. If you took on massive debt to go to law school with the mentality that you'd land a guaranteed paycheck at the end, you make a financial mistake and you're going to have to live up to it now.

Anyone planning on attending law school needs to have a backup plan from day 1. If nobody is willing to give you a chance, give yourself one. Start learning how to invest in yourself and your personal brand. At the end of 3L, your options may be solo practice or McDonald's. Develop the skills you need to get clients to sign those retainers right from the get go. Those skills can often be more valuable than your legal skills.

All of this is awful advice.


I'm not an 0L, I'm a practicing attorney about five years out. I went to a "T40" school. I do not agree with you about this advice being awful. All the entrepreneurial people I went to law school with are very successful regardless of what their grades were in law school. I think this is what the poster is basically trying to say.

As for me, I built a private practice in about three years that netted me over 100k a year. Each year it grows and now I have people working under me. I enjoy it because I don't have to make any arguments that I'm not comfortable with, and I also get to set my own schedule.

To the original OP: hang in there! You'll get rejected 100 times before you get your foot in the door, and there is nothing wrong with that. Life is about failing and learning from failure, and then failing again.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:06 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:All the entrepreneurial people I went to law school with are very successful regardless of what their grades were in law school. I think this is what the poster is basically trying to say.

But lots of people who go to law school aren't remotely entrepreneurial, and I think it's perfectly fair to want to be a lawyer but not to be a solo. (The idea of investing in my "personal brand" gives me the heebiejeebies, and if you don't already have the skills to "get clients to sign those retainers right from the get go" law school certainly didn't give them to you.)

I suppose to connect back to the OP again, anyone who goes to law school does have to have a plan B if they don't get the job they wanted and consider for themselves whether going solo is a viable backup.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:18 am

nixy wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:All the entrepreneurial people I went to law school with are very successful regardless of what their grades were in law school. I think this is what the poster is basically trying to say.

But lots of people who go to law school aren't remotely entrepreneurial, and I think it's perfectly fair to want to be a lawyer but not to be a solo.


That's true, but what happens when you can't find anything else? Do you throw your license in the trash without even trying? Learning Wordpress + SEO will take you a week or two. Why not at least try? Many of the entrepreneurs that I know could have never pictured themselves in that type of position a few years before they gave it a try.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:22 am

Pneumonia wrote:
Synapse2018 wrote:
nixy wrote:But attending law school teaches you very very very little about how actually to practice. Going solo isn't a magic solution.


You have to start somewhere. Having a license is the biggest hurdle to practicing. You don't need to take on cases that you can't handle. Within a few years, you'll have experience and a client base. You have to be proactive about making a living. You can't rely on anybody else in this world. Your personal interests don't usually align well with government or corporate interests anyway.

The placement and salary numbers law schools report are VERY skewed. You need to interpret the data and not accept it at face value BEFORE deciding what to spend on law school. If you took on massive debt to go to law school with the mentality that you'd land a guaranteed paycheck at the end, you make a financial mistake and you're going to have to live up to it now.

Anyone planning on attending law school needs to have a backup plan from day 1. If nobody is willing to give you a chance, give yourself one. Start learning how to invest in yourself and your personal brand. At the end of 3L, your options may be solo practice or McDonald's. Develop the skills you need to get clients to sign those retainers right from the get go. Those skills can often be more valuable than your legal skills.

All of this is awful advice.


If you can't find a corporate job, do you throw your license in the trash? Employers discriminate against the long-term unemployed. A year after law school, it's going to be significantly more difficult to find a job if you haven't been able to for a year.

You have a license to practice. Start practicing! Nobody is going to hand you anything. If nobody else will give you a chance, give yourself one before simply giving up.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:33 am

Dcc617 wrote:Synapse, just curious, do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Based on your posts it doesn't seem like you do, and you're giving awful advice. I'm just curious if you're a 0L.


10 years of successful entrepreneurship currently leading a team of 5 consultants working in the banking/fintech sector. It all started when my CS degree wasn’t landing me any type of meaningful job. I started with small web dev projects for law firms/doctors/local businesses. So, I know a thing or two about the situation the OP is in even if it was in a different field.

People said it was an awful idea to start a consulting business, but it wasn’t. Some people just assume if they’re afraid or incapable of doing something that it’s a bad idea for everyone. Like I said, throwing your license in the garbage because a corporation won’t hire you is he awful advice. Working to make something of yourself despite it is not.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 am

Synapse2018 wrote:Some people just assume if they’re afraid or incapable of doing something that it’s a bad idea for everyone.

And some people assume if it worked for them, it will work for everyone.

I'm also presuming your degree prepared you to actually do CS work.

If the OP wants to go solo, they absolutely should. But they should also keep applying, as they're in the school/grades/kind of job circumstances where lots (probably most) people won't get hired until after bar results come back. (This was the case for my graduating class - numbers at graduation were not good, but by the end of the year pretty much everyone had found jobs.) They're not doomed and going solo isn't their only option. It is *an* option, but I really don't think it's helpful to tell law school grads that they're golden because they have a license [which technically the OP doesn't have yet and won't till October or November, likely] and that the only thing between them and good money is securing clients, because it's just not accurate for many many people. 1) "just secure clients bro" doesn't work in all fields in all markets and 2) "if you get clients you're making good money" also isn't true in every context. You don't know this persons market or experience - you have no idea if they're in a position to get clients as a solo.

(signed, a lawyer who enjoys the job but has no desire ever to go solo and I don't think that makes me a bad lawyer/person)

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Dcc617 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:42 am

Synapse2018 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Synapse, just curious, do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Based on your posts it doesn't seem like you do, and you're giving awful advice. I'm just curious if you're a 0L.


10 years of successful entrepreneurship currently leading a team of 5 consultants working in the banking/fintech sector. It all started when my CS degree wasn’t landing me any type of meaningful job. I started with small web dev projects for law firms/doctors/local businesses. So, I know a thing or two about the situation the OP is in even if it was in a different field.

People said it was an awful idea to start a consulting business, but it wasn’t. Some people just assume if they’re afraid or incapable of doing something that it’s a bad idea for everyone. Like I said, throwing your license in the garbage because a corporation won’t hire you is he awful advice. Working to make something of yourself despite it is not.


So you’re a 0L. You may have a lot of experience outside of law, but none in it.

OP’s message was to warn people considering law school about rough job prospects and to not take a ton of debt for them. You’re arguing that the solution is just to try harder. That’s awful advice for 0Ls, the intended audience of the OP’s post. That’s like telling people to hustle and network better. Doing that won’t work for everyone, because it can’t. Law school also doesn’t prepare you to be a small business owner, or really even to practice law. Going solo should not be anyone’s first, second, or third option because it’s not likely to succeed unless the person has some other stuff going for them.

People considering law school should look to maximize job options and minimize debt. People should count on the median outcomes when picking schools because they can’t bank on being better than everyone.

Your advice is bad because it puts the message out that people can make a bad decision and then hustle their way to success. You don’t know what you’re talking about in the legal world. Your advice is bad and because you’re a 0L you’re the blind leading the blind.

OP, I’m sorry you’re having trouble. Keep mass mailing and putting your resume out. The economy is good and you only need one yes.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:53 am

nixy wrote:
Synapse2018 wrote:Some people just assume if they’re afraid or incapable of doing something that it’s a bad idea for everyone.

And some people assume if it worked for them, it will work for everyone.

I'm also presuming your degree prepared you to actually do CS work.

If the OP wants to go solo, they absolutely should. But they should also keep applying, as they're in the school/grades/kind of job circumstances where lots (probably most) people won't get hired until after bar results come back. (This was the case for my graduating class - numbers at graduation were not good, but by the end of the year pretty much everyone had found jobs.) They're not doomed and going solo isn't their only option. It is *an* option, but I really don't think it's helpful to tell law school grads that they're golden because they have a license [which technically the OP doesn't have yet and won't till October or November, likely] and that the only thing between them and good money is securing clients, because it's just not accurate for many many people. 1) "just secure clients bro" doesn't work in all fields in all markets and 2) "if you get clients you're making good money" also isn't true in every context. You don't know this persons market or experience - you have no idea if they're in a position to get clients as a solo.

(signed, a lawyer who enjoys the job but has no desire ever to go solo and I don't think that makes me a bad lawyer/person)


Listen, I agree with you. The OP stated that the degree is worthless if you can't find a job. I was addressing that argument ONLY. If he really wants to practice law, he can. After the bar, nothing stands in his way. All he needs to successfully retain clients is knowledge that is available publicly and in any format he chooses.

Some folks just won't find the job they're looking for. Assuming OP graduated in May, he'll soon be 90 days unemployed which can turn into 6 months or even 1 year really fast. Yes, he should keep looking for a job; however, he SHOULD NOT DEPEND on finding a salaried job as the ONLY possible route to earning a living from his degree.

The worst advice is to "JUST keep looking". You need to be much more proactive than that these days!

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:01 am

Yet again, you don’t understand the legal profession and its hiring practices (in particular the necessity of taking the bar and getting licensed before some employers wil even consider you, and the timeline on which that happens). The OP had to take the bar (which they will have just done last week) and now has to wait for results before many employers will even look at them; that’s not quite the same as 90 days unemployed.

So yes, just keep looking has a shelf life, but the OP hasn’t reached it yet. And, of course, “just keep looking” should include joining relevant bar associations, going to CLEs or other group things, reaching out to alums or other connections in their market, and the like.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:09 am

Dcc617 wrote:Your advice is bad because it puts the message out that people can make a bad decision and then hustle their way to success. You don’t know what you’re talking about in the legal world.


Only 62% of law school graduates manage to secure a full time job that requires a JD 9 months after graduation. That leaves 38% who your advice didn't work for.

The OP made the bad decision BEFORE going to law school by assuming the debt despite #s like that 62%. He's now arguing that his degree is useless, which it is not. There are thousands out there right now struggling and fighting for that license. That 38% could be reduced greatly if people like you give up on the "corporate or nothing" mentality.

While not everyone is well-equipped to run a business, it's not rocket science. You got through law school. You can figure out how to create a listing on Google Places and Yelp. While you may not earn a substantial living this way, you will gain experience and earn SOME money utilizing your degree and license in a meaningful way instead of sitting around and waiting around for that contract that will never come.

There's no difference between the "legal" world and the "real world" when it comes to personal responsibility and business management. Anyone attending or planning to attend law school MUST consider that finding a corporate job may not work out. You got a 62% chance of landing that corporate job. What if you end up in that 38%? Are you going to give up like the OP or will you keep working as hard as you did to go through law school to earn a reputation and become financially independent?

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby nixy » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:14 am

Synapse2018 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Your advice is bad because it puts the message out that people can make a bad decision and then hustle their way to success. You don’t know what you’re talking about in the legal world.


Only 62% of law school graduates manage to secure a full time job that requires a JD 9 months after graduation. That leaves 38% who your advice didn't work for.

The OP made the bad decision BEFORE going to law school by assuming the debt despite #s like that 62%. He's now arguing that his degree is useless, which it is not. There are thousands out there right now struggling and fighting for that license. That 38% could be reduced greatly if people like you give up on the "corporate or nothing" mentality.

While not everyone is well-equipped to run a business, it's not rocket science. You got through law school. You can figure out how to create a listing on Google Places and Yelp. While you may not earn a substantial living this way, you will gain experience and earn SOME money utilizing your degree and license in a meaningful way instead of sitting around and waiting around for that contract that will never come.

There's no difference between the "legal" world and the "real world" when it comes to personal responsibility and business management. Anyone attending or planning to attend law school MUST consider that finding a corporate job may not work out. You got a 62% chance of landing that corporate job. What if you end up in that 38%? Are you going to give up like the OP or will you keep working as hard as you did to go through law school to earn a reputation and become financially independent?

Oh my god, what are you talking about? Why are you assuming none of the 38% actually tried going solo? Why are you calling the 62% “corporate jobs” when “corporate” jobs are only a subset of legal jobs out there? I am completely baffled by where your understanding of the legal profession comes from.

38% don’t end up with jobs because the legal market is oversaturated (even if distribution can be wonky). Not because they didn’t “hustle” enough. Stop blaming the unemployed.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Synapse2018 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:25 am

nixy wrote:
Synapse2018 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Your advice is bad because it puts the message out that people can make a bad decision and then hustle their way to success. You don’t know what you’re talking about in the legal world.


Only 62% of law school graduates manage to secure a full time job that requires a JD 9 months after graduation. That leaves 38% who your advice didn't work for.

The OP made the bad decision BEFORE going to law school by assuming the debt despite #s like that 62%. He's now arguing that his degree is useless, which it is not. There are thousands out there right now struggling and fighting for that license. That 38% could be reduced greatly if people like you give up on the "corporate or nothing" mentality.

While not everyone is well-equipped to run a business, it's not rocket science. You got through law school. You can figure out how to create a listing on Google Places and Yelp. While you may not earn a substantial living this way, you will gain experience and earn SOME money utilizing your degree and license in a meaningful way instead of sitting around and waiting around for that contract that will never come.

There's no difference between the "legal" world and the "real world" when it comes to personal responsibility and business management. Anyone attending or planning to attend law school MUST consider that finding a corporate job may not work out. You got a 62% chance of landing that corporate job. What if you end up in that 38%? Are you going to give up like the OP or will you keep working as hard as you did to go through law school to earn a reputation and become financially independent?

Oh my god, what are you talking about? Why are you assuming none of the 38% actually tried going solo? Why are you calling the 62% “corporate jobs” when “corporate” jobs are only a subset of legal jobs out there? I am completely baffled by where your understanding of the legal profession comes from.

38% don’t end up with jobs because the legal market is oversaturated (even if distribution can be wonky). Not because they didn’t “hustle” enough. Stop blaming the unemployed.


A corporate job is a job working for a corporation. It is not equivalent to practicing corporate law. That shouldn't have to be explained.

Given that the statistic cited is 9 months out of graduation, your theory that they've tried to go solo isn't applicable. It takes longer than that to build something meaningful for yourself. The market may be over saturated but so is just about every other market.

I never blamed anyone for being unemployed. I even stated that was my own situation and what it took to get from that to being independent and financially successful was primarily a change of mindset. You have to first believe in yourself to be a successful entrepreneur. It seems to me like that's where the difference of opinion really lies here.

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Re: Seriously reconsider

Postby Dcc617 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:13 am

ITT A 0L hijacks a warning thread to explain legal hiring to lawyers and law students.



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