Am I crazy to choose Tulane over Vanderbilt? Forum

[magnolia18]

After having received all my scholarship offers and visited the schools I got into, these are my two favorites that I'm deciding between. I got $119,000 from Vanderbilt and $150,000 from Tulane (which, with a few extra thousand I got from an independent scholarship and the ability to live at home, would make going to Tulane virtually free). My stats are 167 and 3.96 (and I don't think retaking would help in this case, because research on LSN has revealed that my scholarship from Vanderbilt is already high for my stats and I couldn't necessarily expect more money from a few more potential LSAT points).

Throughout the application process, I've been leaning towards Tulane for the following reasons:
1. I'm from New Orleans and feel that I would be happiest living here during law school; I also want to start my legal career here (though I'm not certain I'll want to stay here forever). Tulane is the undisputed top law school in Louisiana, and going to Tulane would obviously be beneficial for local networking.
2. The work I'm most interested in for the long term doesn't really require going to a "prestigious" law school. I'm not at all interested in big law and instead see myself working in a smaller practice in a client-focused field like family law or immigration law. I am potentially interested in a clerkship right after law school, which would admittedly be easier to get coming from Vanderbilt; however, it is not impossible at Tulane, where according to the ABA 509, 18 students from the last graduating class got federal clerkships.
3. Though I know this is unpredictable, I firmly believe that I'll be at the top of my class at Tulane. It seems that my stats alone put me in the top 10% of applicants (medians are 158 and 3.5), and I think being in a familiar setting where I already have such an advantage will make it feasible to perform very well. There's no reason to believe that I wouldn't do well at Vanderbilt, but I think it's more realistic that I would be at the very top of my class at Tulane, which would offer a lot of opportunities within the school itself (law review, etc).

There is obviously a big difference in the ranking of the two schools, and my scholarship from Vanderbilt is really generous. I also know that going to Vanderbilt, with its strong reputation throughout the South, would get me any opportunity I could get in New Orleans, plus other opportunities elsewhere. However, I really feel drawn to Tulane. Am I crazy to turn down Vanderbilt?

P.S. The common law vs. civil law thing is a non-issue. People who went to school out of state pass the Louisiana bar and come work here all the time, and vice versa. Louisiana's system is not that unique, it's just a matter of some concepts having different names.

[Justtrying2help]

It is not crazy because you would graduate debt free and you do not want big law. Tulane should be a fine choice in this situation.

[sparkytrainer]

Yeah, its actually a really stupid decision to pick Tulane.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Tulane is fine if you're interested in doing family or immigration law and don't expect to land a federal clerkship. Being happy at the school you attend is generally an underrated factor when choosing a school.

[beinghuman]

The difference in money in not that great but the difference in opportunities is (31k is worth it for Vandy vs Tulane).
Also, regarding reason number 3, that's a gamble and you have no idea how well you'll do so it's not very smart to base a decision on a 'firm' belief.

After having received all my scholarship offers and visited the schools I got into, these are my two favorites that I'm deciding between. I got $119,000 from Vanderbilt and $150,000 from Tulane (which, with a few extra thousand I got from an independent scholarship and the ability to live at home, would make going to Tulane virtually free). My stats are 167 and 3.96 (and I don't think retaking would help in this case, because research on LSN has revealed that my scholarship from Vanderbilt is already high for my stats and I couldn't necessarily expect more money from a few more potential LSAT points).

Throughout the application process, I've been leaning towards Tulane for the following reasons:
1. I'm from New Orleans and feel that I would be happiest living here during law school; I also want to start my legal career here (though I'm not certain I'll want to stay here forever). Tulane is the undisputed top law school in Louisiana, and going to Tulane would obviously be beneficial for local networking.
2. The work I'm most interested in for the long term doesn't really require going to a "prestigious" law school. I'm not at all interested in big law and instead see myself working in a smaller practice in a client-focused field like family law or immigration law. I am potentially interested in a clerkship right after law school, which would admittedly be easier to get coming from Vanderbilt; however, it is not impossible at Tulane, where according to the ABA 509, 18 students from the last graduating class got federal clerkships.
3. Though I know this is unpredictable, I firmly believe that I'll be at the top of my class at Tulane. It seems that my stats alone put me in the top 10% of applicants (medians are 158 and 3.5), and I think being in a familiar setting where I already have such an advantage will make it feasible to perform very well. There's no reason to believe that I wouldn't do well at Vanderbilt, but I think it's more realistic that I would be at the very top of my class at Tulane, which would offer a lot of opportunities within the school itself (law review, etc).

There is obviously a big difference in the ranking of the two schools, and my scholarship from Vanderbilt is really generous. I also know that going to Vanderbilt, with its strong reputation throughout the South, would get me any opportunity I could get in New Orleans, plus other opportunities elsewhere. However, I really feel drawn to Tulane. Am I crazy to turn down Vanderbilt?

P.S. The common law vs. civil law thing is a non-issue. People who went to school out of state pass the Louisiana bar and come work here all the time, and vice versa. Louisiana's system is not that unique, it's just a matter of some concepts having different names.

[Justtrying2help]

The difference appears to be 100k between Vanderbilt and Tulane because the op can live at home for three years while they attend law school if they choose Tulane. That option wouldn't exist if they went to Tulane. Vanderbilt is a reasonable value with 100k debt. Tulane is a reasonable value with no debt. Vanderbilt is a better deal but Tulane isn't crazy, especially considering the op's modest goals.

[howell]

Going debt free to Tulane is not a bad option considering your goals. But there are two assumptions you're making that are dangerous - that you'll be at/near the top of the class and that you know what you want to do once you get out. Lots of things - both in and out of your control - can affect your grades, and it wouldn't take much to push you outside the top 10%. You also might get to law school and find out there are other jobs you're interested in.

Depending on what you can live on during law school, you could still end up with $100-120k or more in debt from Vanderbilt. But doing that gives you more options, with many of those being on the top end of the salary scale. Over half their class gets fed clerkships or jobs with 100+ attorney firms. There are also interesting government jobs Vandy will open doors to that Tulane might not. Zero debt from Tulane would give you more freedom to take lower-paid jobs right out of law school, however.

[Bubbles1012]

I was in a very similar position to you three years ago. I am a current 3L at Tulane and I was deciding between going to Tulane for free or going to University of Texas with a very nice scholarship. My stats were similar to yours, but I was more of a splitter with a lower GPA and a slightly higher LSAT score. I ended up choosing Tulane for very irrational and emotional reasons, mostly because I love New Orleans and wanted to stay here, despite knowing that going to Texas would have likely given me better opportunities and would have still been a good value at the price point offered. Its worked out for me. I'm staying here and going to one of the top law firms in town that pays above market. Three years later I don't have any regrets. Some things to consider:

1. I, like you, also thought I would be at the top of my class. I thought that I was clearly in the top 10% of applicants and would have a benefit having lived in NOLA prior and not having the sensory overload most newcomers to the city experience. We have all heard the stories about the students who simply could not handle living in such a party friendly and social atmosphere while maintaining grades. I think locals do have an advantage in this regard, simply because you may have a been there, done that attitude to a lot of things that distract other students. On the flip side, though, you will also likely have other distractions, like your friends and family inviting you to crawfish boils and Jazz Fest parties during the middle of finals. There's something to be said for some newcomers not having the same social network and also not knowing what they're missing. That being said, first semester I had a 3.9 GPA and was certainly at the top of my class, but second semester my GPA fell by A LOT. I thought I had law school in the bag, given my first semester performance, and simply didn't work as hard. I also got very distracted around Jazz Fest/finals ( I think Mardi Gras was also late that year, which didn't help with getting me in finals mode). I had a lot of family and friends in town and thought I could party while still doing well. While this is possible, and something I managed to do last year (2L) while pulling great grades, its not as easy to do in the cutthroat, competitive environment that is 1L. Point of this rant- go in with open eyes, don't expect to be top of your class based on your stats, but if you work your butt off you certainly can be and should be given your stats. I finished 1L in the top quarter and will graduate in the top 15%. Also, a good percentage of people that end up on law review and in the top 10% of the class are Louisiana natives that only applied to Tulane because they knew this was where they wanted to practice. They don't frequent TLS and may not be that concerned with extracting every bit of scholarship money out of Tulane. They are simply not that informed about the benefits of rocking the LSAT given they were focused on one market and one school, and thus didn't have that much of an incentive to knock the test out of the park. These unknowns are also your competition for high class ranks. Basically, you can't be sure you will be top 10%, but I think you can be reasonably sure with a bit of effort you will be top quarter and with a lot of effort, significantly higher ranked than that (at least based on my experience coming in with a similar background and similar stats).

2. So, what will that mean for your career trajectory? I wanted biglaw and I got it. Furthermore, almost every student I know in the top 20% that wanted biglaw (or regional NO biglaw) got it. Quite a few people are going to Houston (Kirkland Ellis, Baker Botts, etc.), quite a few people are going to New York (Cleary, Winston, Cahill, Goodwin Proctor etc.), and quite a few people are staying in New Orleans and working at Jones Walker, Stone Pigman, Liskow, Proskauer, Phelps Dunbar, etc. The New Orleans market is striated. A couple of firms like (Jones Walker/Proskauer) pay above NO market. Phelps (I think) and most of the mid law shops like King Krebs start at 100 (NO market). I know you said you don't want biglaw, but my best friend came into law school wanting to do public interest and now she is going to Winston Strawn in New York. If you do well at Tulane you can certainly get biglaw and you are much better situated to get in with local firms and local organizations if that's what you want alternatively. That's not to say it will be easy; a lot of students had to really hustle to get their jobs including me (but some didn't and just got them through OCI). I got my biglaw SA and 3L post grad job (I traded up) through networking and hustling, and it was really daunting for a while. Where I ranked at the end of 1L (right at the bottom of the top quarter), just wasn't high enough to net me a lot of callbacks at OCI, and I wished I had gone to UT at certain points when I was convinced I had struck out. It all worked out for me though, and I couldn't be happier with my outcome. If you're not gregarious and a good networker/interviewer, it might be worth considering that you won't have to be as high in your class at Vandy to get callbacks at OCI and their OCI will also likely be more robust (but won't include New Orleans firms). If you really don't want biglaw though, you should probably go to school here. Smaller organizations and firms that practice family law, etc. (as well as larger NO firms) are really concerned that Tulane students who are not from here are flight risks. They think you will leave to go to a larger and higher paying market the first chance you get. Although you're a New Orleans native, a Vanderbilt JD will likely give rise to many of the same concerns and will make it more difficult for you to get the type of job you want in New Orleans. A Tulane law degree will not preclude you from any job in the New Orleans legal market, but the same isn't necessarily true for a Vanderbilt degree. New Orleans is an insular place.

3. On the flip side, if you want to have the option to leave New Orleans you can certainly do that with a good class rank from Tulane. It will be easier to do from Vanderbilt though. You should look up how many students from Vanderbilt end up in federal clerkships, unless its statistically significantly larger than the 18 (approx. 10% of the class) Tulane places, Vanderbilt is probably not worth the money for you, unless you really want to have options outside of NOLA. For what its worth though, I think Tulane punches far above its weight in terms of job placements and has a pretty good reputation with law firms throughout the country, as well as with federal judges, given that we are sending 10% of the class to federal clerkships and probably 20% to big law or local big law (note that there is certainly overlap between the fed clerkship and law firm group).

There's something that people who are from outside of New Orleans don't understand, and its that we choose to live/work/go to school here for a lot of reasons that are not easily quantified. Life isn't always easy in the Big Easy (ironically); wages are lower, crime is high, the roads suck, the public schools aren't great... but we also have the French Quarter, and glitter, and Mardi Gras, and the Bayou running into City Park, and people constantly getting glitter all over your desk at the courthouse on Royal Street, and king cake, and glitter, and the friendliest people in the work, and close to 300 days of sunshine, and amazing music, and food, and something in the air that just makes living here more FUN than living anywhere else in the country (if not the world). There's a reason anyone with a soul loves this place, and Nashville's a cool town, but it ain't New Orleans. Also, if go to Tulane you may have the option to clerk at the Fourth Circuit or the LA Supreme Court on Royal Street (I currently intern here), and walking down Royal Street to get to work has got to be the most gorgeous walk that anyone in this profession has the pleasure of experiencing, and would likely make for a much more enjoyable term than clerking in a flyover district.

So just an extremely biased viewpoint on what you're going through right now.

[magnolia18]

I was in a very similar position to you three years ago. I am a current 3L at Tulane and I was deciding between going to Tulane for free or going to University of Texas with a very nice scholarship. My stats were similar to yours, but I was more of a splitter with a lower GPA and a slightly higher LSAT score. I ended up choosing Tulane for very irrational and emotional reasons, mostly because I love New Orleans and wanted to stay here, despite knowing that going to Texas would have likely given me better opportunities and would have still been a good value at the price point offered. Its worked out for me. I'm staying here and going to one of the top law firms in town that pays above market. Three years later I don't have any regrets. Some things to consider:

1. I, like you, also thought I would be at the top of my class. I thought that I was clearly in the top 10% of applicants and would have a benefit having lived in NOLA prior and not having the sensory overload most newcomers to the city experience. We have all heard the stories about the students who simply could not handle living in such a party friendly and social atmosphere while maintaining grades. I think locals do have an advantage in this regard, simply because you may have a been there, done that attitude to a lot of things that distract other students. On the flip side, though, you will also likely have other distractions, like your friends and family inviting you to crawfish boils and Jazz Fest parties during the middle of finals. There's something to be said for some newcomers not having the same social network and also not knowing what they're missing. That being said, first semester I had a 3.9 GPA and was certainly at the top of my class, but second semester my GPA fell by A LOT. I thought I had law school in the bag, given my first semester performance, and simply didn't work as hard. I also got very distracted around Jazz Fest/finals ( I think Mardi Gras was also late that year, which didn't help with getting me in finals mode). I had a lot of family and friends in town and thought I could party while still doing well. While this is possible, and something I managed to do last year (2L) while pulling great grades, its not as easy to do in the cutthroat, competitive environment that is 1L. Point of this rant- go in with open eyes, don't expect to be top of your class based on your stats, but if you work your butt off you certainly can be and should be given your stats. I finished 1L in the top quarter and will graduate in the top 15%. Also, a good percentage of people that end up on law review and in the top 10% of the class are Louisiana natives that only applied to Tulane because they knew this was where they wanted to practice. They don't frequent TLS and may not be that concerned with extracting every bit of scholarship money out of Tulane. They are simply not that informed about the benefits of rocking the LSAT given they were focused on one market and one school, and thus didn't have that much of an incentive to knock the test out of the park. These unknowns are also your competition for high class ranks. Basically, you can't be sure you will be top 10%, but I think you can be reasonably sure with a bit of effort you will be top quarter and with a lot of effort, significantly higher ranked than that (at least based on my experience coming in with a similar background and similar stats).

2. So, what will that mean for your career trajectory? I wanted biglaw and I got it. Furthermore, almost every student I know in the top 20% that wanted biglaw (or regional NO biglaw) got it. Quite a few people are going to Houston (Kirkland Ellis, Baker Botts, etc.), quite a few people are going to New York (Cleary, Winston, Cahill, Goodwin Proctor etc.), and quite a few people are staying in New Orleans and working at Jones Walker, Stone Pigman, Liskow, Proskauer, Phelps Dunbar, etc. The New Orleans market is striated. A couple of firms like (Jones Walker/Proskauer) pay above NO market. Phelps (I think) and most of the mid law shops like King Krebs start at 100 (NO market). I know you said you don't want biglaw, but my best friend came into law school wanting to do public interest and now she is going to Winston Strawn in New York. If you do well at Tulane you can certainly get biglaw and you are much better situated to get in with local firms and local organizations if that's what you want alternatively. That's not to say it will be easy; a lot of students had to really hustle to get their jobs including me (but some didn't and just got them through OCI). I got my biglaw SA and 3L post grad job (I traded up) through networking and hustling, and it was really daunting for a while. Where I ranked at the end of 1L (right at the bottom of the top quarter), just wasn't high enough to net me a lot of callbacks at OCI, and I wished I had gone to UT at certain points when I was convinced I had struck out. It all worked out for me though, and I couldn't be happier with my outcome. If you're not gregarious and a good networker/interviewer, it might be worth considering that you won't have to be as high in your class at Vandy to get callbacks at OCI and their OCI will also likely be more robust (but won't include New Orleans firms). If you really don't want biglaw though, you should probably go to school here. Smaller organizations and firms that practice family law, etc. (as well as larger NO firms) are really concerned that Tulane students who are not from here are flight risks. They think you will leave to go to a larger and higher paying market the first chance you get. Although you're a New Orleans native, a Vanderbilt JD will likely give rise to many of the same concerns and will make it more difficult for you to get the type of job you want in New Orleans. A Tulane law degree will not preclude you from any job in the New Orleans legal market, but the same isn't necessarily true for a Vanderbilt degree. New Orleans is an insular place.

3. On the flip side, if you want to have the option to leave New Orleans you can certainly do that with a good class rank from Tulane. It will be easier to do from Vanderbilt though. You should look up how many students from Vanderbilt end up in federal clerkships, unless its statistically significantly larger than the 18 (approx. 10% of the class) Tulane places, Vanderbilt is probably not worth the money for you, unless you really want to have options outside of NOLA. For what its worth though, I think Tulane punches far above its weight in terms of job placements and has a pretty good reputation with law firms throughout the country, as well as with federal judges, given that we are sending 10% of the class to federal clerkships and probably 20% to big law or local big law (note that there is certainly overlap between the fed clerkship and law firm group).

There's something that people who are from outside of New Orleans don't understand, and its that we choose to live/work/go to school here for a lot of reasons that are not easily quantified. Life isn't always easy in the Big Easy (ironically); wages are lower, crime is high, the roads suck, the public schools aren't great... but we also have the French Quarter, and glitter, and Mardi Gras, and the Bayou running into City Park, and people constantly getting glitter all over your desk at the courthouse on Royal Street, and king cake, and glitter, and the friendliest people in the work, and close to 300 days of sunshine, and amazing music, and food, and something in the air that just makes living here more FUN than living anywhere else in the country (if not the world). There's a reason anyone with a soul loves this place, and Nashville's a cool town, but it ain't New Orleans. Also, if go to Tulane you may have the option to clerk at the Fourth Circuit or the LA Supreme Court on Royal Street (I currently intern here), and walking down Royal Street to get to work has got to be the most gorgeous walk that anyone in this profession has the pleasure of experiencing, and would likely make for a much more enjoyable term than clerking in a flyover district.

So just an extremely biased viewpoint on what you're going through right now.

Thanks for this! It's good to hear from someone who made the same choice and doesn't regret it (and to get a reality check about making assumptions about class rank).

[Bubbles1012]

Of course! Feel free to PM me if you want to talk further or even get a coffee if you are in NOLA.

[Bubbles1012]

FWIW, both Tulane and Vanderbilt sent 18 students on to federal clerkships in their most recent ABA disclosures. Tulane had a larger class and that 18 was about 9% of their class. Vanderbilt sent 11% of their class to federal clerkships. I don't think that extra 2% is worth the 100K in debt, especially if you will be much happier at Tulane. Seeing the breadth and quality of jobs my classmates have gotten at Tulane, I really don't think practitioners doing the hiring care all that much about rank, if they even know the rank of a respective school at any point. This is something that prestige-whoring students on TLS put a lot of stock in, but at the end of the day don't necessarily matter depending on your career goals. It sounds like it likely doesn't matter for you given your career goals.

[magnolia18]

Thanks for looking that up. It is pleasantly surprising that the two schools' clerkship rates are so similar given the disparity in "prestige"

[magnolia18]

Wow, it looks like Tulane actually ranks pretty high for federal clerkships overall: it ranked 15th in 2016, right after Texas and above Northwestern (https://public.tableau.com/profile/publ ... sh-confirm). That feels like another good reason to go there...

[beinghuman]

keep in mind that some clerkships are more prestigious than others... If you want to make an accurate comparison, you'd need that data too.

Wow, it looks like Tulane actually ranks pretty high for federal clerkships overall: it ranked 15th in 2016, right after Texas and above Northwestern (https://public.tableau.com/profile/publ ... sh-confirm). That feels like another good reason to go there...