Minnesota($$$) vs GW ($$) Forum

[Dubbus]

Hello! TLS has been an invaluable resource as I have applied for schools, and I wanted to get your opinion.

My basic situation: 26, minimal student debt from undergrad but nonexistent savings. My primary goal is to work in financial and securities regulation for the federal government (wanted to work for the CFPB but lol). I would also be ok with prosecutor work (ADA or more prestigious work). If BigLaw happened then that would be great but I am definitely not BigLaw or bust.

Given this making my debt load manageable is a big priority. I am still waiting on responses from some of the lower T14s but I doubt those offers would come with enough money to make attendance comfortable for me.

So right now it is between University of Minnesota with a full ride and GW with 135,000 (45k a year) scholly. I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida. Ideally I would like to accrue no more than 75k debt but would be ok with about 100k if I was confident of making 60k a year or more after.

I have significant family ties/friends in the DC area and obviously it is better for my career goals but I am wary of the cost at GW. If I perform well at MN is there any chance of breaking out of the minnesota market?

What is your advice?

[rowdy]

I am very confident that I will stay at at least the class median and fairly confident I can crack the top 10 to 15 percent.

inb4 you get piled on for saying this, just edit your post now before it's too late

[Dubbus]

I am very confident that I will stay at at least the class median and fairly confident I can crack the top 10 to 15 percent.

inb4 you get piled on for saying this, just edit your post now before it's too late

Good advice. To be clear I am not assuming I would be at the top of the class and am not making decisions on that basis.

[sparkytrainer]

I am very confident that I will stay at at least the class median and fairly confident I can crack the top 10 to 15 percent.

inb4 you get piled on for saying this, just edit your post now before it's too late

Good advice. To be clear I am not assuming I would be at the top of the class and am not making decisions on that basis.

OP, you realize law school grades include a level of randomness you can't predict in any way right? So don't put a cart before the horse because to be blunt: you have no idea how you will perform and there is no way to predict. It is frankly ridiculous to make any claims on this line.

Go to Minn if you want to work in that state. If you dont, dont go to Minn.

GW is a crap shoot. I personally know 5 people who graduated top 20% last year from GW. Only 2 have jobs, with only 1 of those 2 having a permanent position. DC is way too saturated right now and GW and GT have way too many students to get jobs in DC or the surrounding area.

[rowdy]

I am very confident that I will stay at at least the class median and fairly confident I can crack the top 10 to 15 percent.

inb4 you get piled on for saying this, just edit your post now before it's too late

Good advice. To be clear I am not assuming I would be at the top of the class and am not making decisions on that basis.

FWIW If you're fine living and working in the Twin Cities, take the money.

[kippercd]

Hello! TLS has been an invaluable resource as I have applied for schools, and I wanted to get your opinion.

My basic situation: 26, minimal student debt from undergrad but nonexistent savings. My primary goal is to work in financial and securities regulation for the federal government (wanted to work for the CFPB but lol). I would also be ok with prosecutor work (ADA or more prestigious work). If BigLaw happened then that would be great but I am definitely not BigLaw or bust.

Given this making my debt load manageable is a big priority. I am still waiting on responses from some of the lower T14s but I doubt those offers would come with enough money to make attendance comfortable for me.

So right now it is between University of Minnesota with a full ride and GW with 135,000 (45k a year) scholly. I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida. Ideally I would like to accrue no more than 75k debt but would be ok with about 100k if I was confident of making 60k a year or more after.

I have significant family ties/friends in the DC area and obviously it is better for my career goals but I am wary of the cost at GW. If I perform well at MN is there any chance of breaking out of the minnesota market?

What is your advice?

scholarship doesnt matter. whats the total COA of each? and where would you like to practice?

[Dubbus]

Hello! TLS has been an invaluable resource as I have applied for schools, and I wanted to get your opinion.

My basic situation: 26, minimal student debt from undergrad but nonexistent savings. My primary goal is to work in financial and securities regulation for the federal government (wanted to work for the CFPB but lol). I would also be ok with prosecutor work (ADA or more prestigious work). If BigLaw happened then that would be great but I am definitely not BigLaw or bust.

Given this making my debt load manageable is a big priority. I am still waiting on responses from some of the lower T14s but I doubt those offers would come with enough money to make attendance comfortable for me.

So right now it is between University of Minnesota with a full ride and GW with 135,000 (45k a year) scholly. I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida. Ideally I would like to accrue no more than 75k debt but would be ok with about 100k if I was confident of making 60k a year or more after.

I have significant family ties/friends in the DC area and obviously it is better for my career goals but I am wary of the cost at GW. If I perform well at MN is there any chance of breaking out of the minnesota market?

What is your advice?

scholarship doesnt matter. whats the total COA of each? and where would you like to practice?

Minnesota has a dirt cheap cost of living but as I said my dream job would be at a federal agency, which obviously makes DC a far more attractive location. But then the COL is way higher too and I'm already paying .thirteen grand a year for tuition.

Edit; sorry I misread coa as col. My bad.

[kippercd]

Hello! TLS has been an invaluable resource as I have applied for schools, and I wanted to get your opinion.

My basic situation: 26, minimal student debt from undergrad but nonexistent savings. My primary goal is to work in financial and securities regulation for the federal government (wanted to work for the CFPB but lol). I would also be ok with prosecutor work (ADA or more prestigious work). If BigLaw happened then that would be great but I am definitely not BigLaw or bust.

Given this making my debt load manageable is a big priority. I am still waiting on responses from some of the lower T14s but I doubt those offers would come with enough money to make attendance comfortable for me.

So right now it is between University of Minnesota with a full ride and GW with 135,000 (45k a year) scholly. I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida. Ideally I would like to accrue no more than 75k debt but would be ok with about 100k if I was confident of making 60k a year or more after.

I have significant family ties/friends in the DC area and obviously it is better for my career goals but I am wary of the cost at GW. If I perform well at MN is there any chance of breaking out of the minnesota market?

What is your advice?

scholarship doesnt matter. whats the total COA of each? and where would you like to practice?

Minnesota has a dirt cheap cost of living but as I said my dream job would be at a federal agency, which obviously makes DC a far more attractive location. But then the COL is way higher too and I'm already paying .thirteen grand a year for tuition.

I mean thats obvious, but what are you thinking your COA would be? that can matter, also the Fed govt doesnt just exist in DC

[Dubbus]

Hello! TLS has been an invaluable resource as I have applied for schools, and I wanted to get your opinion.

My basic situation: 26, minimal student debt from undergrad but nonexistent savings. My primary goal is to work in financial and securities regulation for the federal government (wanted to work for the CFPB but lol). I would also be ok with prosecutor work (ADA or more prestigious work). If BigLaw happened then that would be great but I am definitely not BigLaw or bust.

Given this making my debt load manageable is a big priority. I am still waiting on responses from some of the lower T14s but I doubt those offers would come with enough money to make attendance comfortable for me.

So right now it is between University of Minnesota with a full ride and GW with 135,000 (45k a year) scholly. I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida. Ideally I would like to accrue no more than 75k debt but would be ok with about 100k if I was confident of making 60k a year or more after.

I have significant family ties/friends in the DC area and obviously it is better for my career goals but I am wary of the cost at GW. If I perform well at MN is there any chance of breaking out of the minnesota market?

What is your advice?

scholarship doesnt matter. whats the total COA of each? and where would you like to practice?

Minnesota has a dirt cheap cost of living but as I said my dream job would be at a federal agency, which obviously makes DC a far more attractive location. But then the COL is way higher too and I'm already paying .thirteen grand a year for tuition.

I mean thats obvious, but what are you thinking your COA would be? that can matter, also the Fed govt doesnt just exist in DC

My rough estimate is a 100k cos for gw and 70k for MN

[UVA2B]

Let's explore your backup plans for a bit. If you miss out on fed gov, and end up working as an ADA or PD, are you comfortable living on PSLF? And by that I mean, would you really be happy with that outcome? Because fed gov will be a tough ask at either school, but it's not outside the realm of possibility entirely (although if you confine it to financial and securities regulation, it gets pretty limited pretty quick). So, assuming you miss out on fed gov, and assuming you know that now, would you be happy in your life being an ADA in Hennepin County or in Northern Virginia? That could turn into something different potentially, but assuming you don't progress beyond local government and prosecution, can you imagine thinking you made the right choice?

These are the things you need to think about. Your debt load is manageable if PSLF continues to exist and you get your primary or backup plans. But if it's the backup plan, and you have to abandon what you seem to be pretty motivated to do, would you actually be happy with that outcome?

[Dubbus]

Let's explore your backup plans for a bit. If you miss out on fed gov, and end up working as an ADA or PD, are you comfortable living on PSLF? And by that I mean, would you really be happy with that outcome? Because fed gov will be a tough ask at either school, but it's not outside the realm of possibility entirely (although if you confine it to financial and securities regulation, it gets pretty limited pretty quick). So, assuming you miss out on fed gov, and assuming you know that now, would you be happy in your life being an ADA in Hennepin County or in Northern Virginia? That could turn into something different potentially, but assuming you don't progress beyond local government and prosecution, can you imagine thinking you made the right choice?

These are the things you need to think about. Your debt load is manageable if PSLF continues to exist and you get your primary or backup plans. But if it's the backup plan, and you have to abandon what you seem to be pretty motivated to do, would you actually be happy with that outcome?

I think I would be ok with it if I could live a decently middle class lifestyle. My motivations for being an attorney are 1.) I think it is the best way to leverage my natural talents to help people 2.) I find the law and the practice of law intellectually stimulating and wildly fascinating 3.) Prestige and 4.) Money. Being in local government hits on a lot of those and is certainly better than the job I currently have.

My question for you I guess is where you think fed gov would be an easier ask? Financial regulation is my preference but I am not completely married to it. It is a buyers market for agencies after all.

[UVA2B]

Let's explore your backup plans for a bit. If you miss out on fed gov, and end up working as an ADA or PD, are you comfortable living on PSLF? And by that I mean, would you really be happy with that outcome? Because fed gov will be a tough ask at either school, but it's not outside the realm of possibility entirely (although if you confine it to financial and securities regulation, it gets pretty limited pretty quick). So, assuming you miss out on fed gov, and assuming you know that now, would you be happy in your life being an ADA in Hennepin County or in Northern Virginia? That could turn into something different potentially, but assuming you don't progress beyond local government and prosecution, can you imagine thinking you made the right choice?

These are the things you need to think about. Your debt load is manageable if PSLF continues to exist and you get your primary or backup plans. But if it's the backup plan, and you have to abandon what you seem to be pretty motivated to do, would you actually be happy with that outcome?

I think I would be ok with it if I could live a decently middle class lifestyle. My motivations for being an attorney are 1.) I think it is the best way to leverage my natural talents to help people 2.) I find the law and the practice of law intellectually stimulating and wildly fascinating 3.) Prestige and 4.) Money. Being in local government hits on a lot of those and is certainly better than the job I currently have.

My question for you I guess is where you think fed gov would be an easier ask? Financial regulation is my preference but I am not completely married to it. It is a buyers market for agencies after all.

It's not exactly a reasonable ask at either. GW probably has an edge due to proximity to agencies and the ability to intern, extern, and get your face in front of the agencies, but that in no way guarantees anything. Federal agencies use free labor with near impunity because there is no shortage of people going to GW (and similar schools) thinking they really want to work for the federal government. MN would be less so like that, but that doesn't make it somehow magically easier to get a federal government job. There aren't any easy inroads to the federal government (maybe HYS, but I pretty much always put a caveat on HYS because it's a whole different beast in the legal profession. But even those schools aren't anywhere close to an automatic or an expectation from my limited understanding).

Federal government hiring is extremely limited, even when you expand your focus beyond financial regulation. And to be frank, the reasons you offered are extremely common for a law degree, but they're also completely trite and cliche. I personally worry you don't actually know what you're getting into, which is a whole separate problem. If you went to GW, took on $100k, and started out with take-home of $50k in Prince George County, you'd need to rely on PSLF/IBR/PAYE to live even a modest existence. Forget middle class lifestyle. You're living to get by for that decade, and that's assuming you keep continued employment for all 120 payments and assuming the federal government doesn't make PSLF disappear.

I don't want to exclusively cast doom and gloom, because UMN for $70k or GW for $100k aren't objectively bad options. But if you assume you struggle to get your primary goal, you need to be realistic about your backup plans (and this isn't even offering a head nod to the fact that often DA offices and other local government want to see a commitment to what they do, which you can't do if you've thrown all of your eggs in the federal government basket).

These might be your two best options in a bubble, but have you actually stopped to ask yourself the more basic question: are these good options for what I want? And would I be truly comfortable with the realities of the most likely outcome from them if I didn't get what I want? I respectfully don't think you're ready to answer those questions yet.

[Dubbus]

Let's explore your backup plans for a bit. If you miss out on fed gov, and end up working as an ADA or PD, are you comfortable living on PSLF? And by that I mean, would you really be happy with that outcome? Because fed gov will be a tough ask at either school, but it's not outside the realm of possibility entirely (although if you confine it to financial and securities regulation, it gets pretty limited pretty quick). So, assuming you miss out on fed gov, and assuming you know that now, would you be happy in your life being an ADA in Hennepin County or in Northern Virginia? That could turn into something different potentially, but assuming you don't progress beyond local government and prosecution, can you imagine thinking you made the right choice?

These are the things you need to think about. Your debt load is manageable if PSLF continues to exist and you get your primary or backup plans. But if it's the backup plan, and you have to abandon what you seem to be pretty motivated to do, would you actually be happy with that outcome?

I think I would be ok with it if I could live a decently middle class lifestyle. My motivations for being an attorney are 1.) I think it is the best way to leverage my natural talents to help people 2.) I find the law and the practice of law intellectually stimulating and wildly fascinating 3.) Prestige and 4.) Money. Being in local government hits on a lot of those and is certainly better than the job I currently have.

My question for you I guess is where you think fed gov would be an easier ask? Financial regulation is my preference but I am not completely married to it. It is a buyers market for agencies after all.

It's not exactly a reasonable ask at either. GW probably has an edge due to proximity to agencies and the ability to intern, extern, and get your face in front of the agencies, but that in no way guarantees anything. Federal agencies use free labor with near impunity because there is no shortage of people going to GW (and similar schools) thinking they really want to work for the federal government. MN would be less so like that, but that doesn't make it somehow magically easier to get a federal government job. There aren't any easy inroads to the federal government (maybe HYS, but I pretty much always put a caveat on HYS because it's a whole different beast in the legal profession. But even those schools aren't anywhere close to an automatic or an expectation from my limited understanding).

Federal government hiring is extremely limited, even when you expand your focus beyond financial regulation. And to be frank, the reasons you offered are extremely common for a law degree, but they're also completely trite and cliche. I personally worry you don't actually know what you're getting into, which is a whole separate problem. If you went to GW, took on $100k, and started out with take-home of $50k in Prince George County, you'd need to rely on PSLF/IBR/PAYE to live even a modest existence. Forget middle class lifestyle. You're living to get by for that decade, and that's assuming you keep continued employment for all 120 payments and assuming the federal government doesn't make PSLF disappear.

I don't want to exclusively cast doom and gloom, because UMN for $70k or GW for $100k aren't objectively bad options. But if you assume you struggle to get your primary goal, you need to be realistic about your backup plans (and this isn't even offering a head nod to the fact that often DA offices and other local government want to see a commitment to what they do, which you can't do if you've thrown all of your eggs in the federal government basket).

These might be your two best options in a bubble, but have you actually stopped to ask yourself the more basic question: are these good options for what I want? And would I be truly comfortable with the realities of the most likely outcome from them if I didn't get what I want? I respectfully don't think you're ready to answer those questions yet.

I understand my reasons are very common but there are only so many reasons anyone wants to take part in any profession. I get what you are saying -- my first choice is extremely unlikely unless I go to Harvard, and even then it is a crapshoot.

Yo me that militates for doing everything I can to limit debt and going to the U. I get it -- the ultimate law school is advice is stay far away followed by make sure you go to HYS. But if I am going to do the dumb thing, what is the least dumb way to do it? Fwiw your args are swaying me toward risk aversion and therefore MN.

[Rigo]

Why would you ever go to Minnesota as a Floridian? Not even saying that for weather reasons either. Just so random, especially for someone not wanting to practice in Minnesota.

[UVA2B]

I understand my reasons are very common but there are only so many reasons anyone wants to take part in any profession. I get what you are saying -- my first choice is extremely unlikely unless I go to Harvard, and even then it is a crapshoot.

Yo me that militates for doing everything I can to limit debt and going to the U. I get it -- the ultimate law school is advice is stay far away followed by make sure you go to HYS. But if I am going to do the dumb thing, what is the least dumb way to do it? Fwiw your args are swaying me toward risk aversion and therefore MN.

I'm really sorry this is what you took away from what I was saying, because it's not at all what I meant. And you've made (potentially) a series of intelligent decisions here, because you're actively trying to limit debt, which is minimally half of the calculus in picking a law school.

Let's assume you throw yourself into getting a federal government job that you want from the start. 1L is pretty formulaic no matter where you go. Because you're committed to the federal government jobs, you apply for and get accepted to the SEC for a summer internship (this is just generic, but a fairly common outcome). You move (or stay) there for the summer, working for the SEC. It won't result in any job offer, but you've gotten some good experience. Because you're invigorated by your experiences, you double down in wanting to work there (or a similar agency). So you take classes as a 2L that will perfectly fit this career path. If you're at GW, you even set up an externship with the agency. If you're at UMN, you work on a schedule that will allow you to show a continued commitment to a federal government job.

(Because I've broad brushed nearly two years of law school, I feel the need to input a caveat on how well you do in law school. Because your commitment won't overcome mediocre performance at GW or UMN. I just wanted to point that out).

Now, assuming you've done everything you can do to set yourself up for fed gov hiring from either school, you enter 3L hiring in the federal government. Your resume is good, but even given your commitment to the particular agency, you are pretty unlikely to be able to make the agency's hiring decision easier. Because you've essentially been a fungible asset to this point, and attorneys you've worked with may have liked you, but they can't appreciably affect hiring decisions. So let's assume you don't get the dream gig you wanted most and worked tirelessly toward. It sucks, but it happens all the time.

Now you're dealing with the stress of finding a job in your given locale. If GW, you're looking for opportunities in/around DC, most likely focused on other than DC proper VA and MD counties and cities. If MN, you're now focused on Hennepin, and maybe you reach to outlying counties and cities. That's not inherently bad, but it's still playing behind the 8 ball. And not being able to sell yourself as committed to the very localized government jobs could hurt you. It might not, but this is just another risk you have to absorb.

If you want to do the dumb thing, spend the time necessary to make your own choices. I can't extend my analysis onto you, because my own personal comfort with your choice differs from yours. I can't help you if you want to parcel the decision to others.

[Rigo]

I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida.

Do you want to stay in Minnesota?
You should reconsider this. UF sounds like the more reasonable risk averse option to me.

[Dubbus]

I also have a full ride to UF in my home state but I do not want to stay in Florida.

Do you want to stay in Minnesota?
You should reconsider this. UF sounds like the more reasonable risk averse option to me.

It is not my first choice but i think Minneapolis is very pleasant. If I failed at my first goals I likely would prioritize remaining in that area. As for why I want to go beyond the area, it is a good school and wages in the state are generally high compared to the COL. It also aligns with my politics which is important to me.

[Dubbus]

I understand my reasons are very common but there are only so many reasons anyone wants to take part in any profession. I get what you are saying -- my first choice is extremely unlikely unless I go to Harvard, and even then it is a crapshoot.

Yo me that militates for doing everything I can to limit debt and going to the U. I get it -- the ultimate law school is advice is stay far away followed by make sure you go to HYS. But if I am going to do the dumb thing, what is the least dumb way to do it? Fwiw your args are swaying me toward risk aversion and therefore MN.

I'm really sorry this is what you took away from what I was saying, because it's not at all what I meant. And you've made (potentially) a series of intelligent decisions here, because you're actively trying to limit debt, which is minimally half of the calculus in picking a law school.

Let's assume you throw yourself into getting a federal government job that you want from the start. 1L is pretty formulaic no matter where you go. Because you're committed to the federal government jobs, you apply for and get accepted to the SEC for a summer internship (this is just generic, but a fairly common outcome). You move (or stay) there for the summer, working for the SEC. It won't result in any job offer, but you've gotten some good experience. Because you're invigorated by your experiences, you double down in wanting to work there (or a similar agency). So you take classes as a 2L that will perfectly fit this career path. If you're at GW, you even set up an externship with the agency. If you're at UMN, you work on a schedule that will allow you to show a continued commitment to a federal government job.

(Because I've broad brushed nearly two years of law school, I feel the need to input a caveat on how well you do in law school. Because your commitment won't overcome mediocre performance at GW or UMN. I just wanted to point that out).

Now, assuming you've done everything you can do to set yourself up for fed gov hiring from either school, you enter 3L hiring in the federal government. Your resume is good, but even given your commitment to the particular agency, you are pretty unlikely to be able to make the agency's hiring decision easier. Because you've essentially been a fungible asset to this point, and attorneys you've worked with may have liked you, but they can't appreciably affect hiring decisions. So let's assume you don't get the dream gig you wanted most and worked tirelessly toward. It sucks, but it happens all the time.

Now you're dealing with the stress of finding a job in your given locale. If GW, you're looking for opportunities in/around DC, most likely focused on other than DC proper VA and MD counties and cities. If MN, you're now focused on Hennepin, and maybe you reach to outlying counties and cities. That's not inherently bad, but it's still playing behind the 8 ball. And not being able to sell yourself as committed to the very localized government jobs could hurt you. It might not, but this is just another risk you have to absorb.

If you want to do the dumb thing, spend the time necessary to make your own choices. I can't extend my analysis onto you, because my own personal comfort with your choice differs from yours. I can't help you if you want to parcel the decision to others.

I did not mean to come off as combative earlier. This is very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to give me your perspective. You gave me a lot to think about for sure

[pancakes3]

100k on 60k income in DC means $350/week after paying loans and rent alone.

what are your numbers?

[cavalier1138]

It also aligns with my politics which is important to me.

What does this mean?

[Dubbus]

It also aligns with my politics which is important to me.

What does this mean?

It is a relatively progressive area and has probably the best, most working class focused state democratic party in the nation