Please take a moment to rip apart my D.C. dreams. (GW,W&M,W&L) Forum

[somewhereclassof2021]

Introduction: I feel like I am stuck in a nerve-wrecking David Lynch film. I am surrealistically watching myself make the same bad decisions that so many before me have made and are trying desperately to save me from, and there seems to be nothing I can do to stop myself. My hope would be that, as I learn more about how terrible a decision attending my top-choice (GW) would be, I would lean further away from making such a decision. Instead, I just remain overwhelmingly committed to it and increasingly depressed about what a bad decision it may be. I am here for some straight talk. I have read numerous threads answering similar questions, but I need the personal touch. Thank you very much for reading.

LSAT: three tries all within points of each other, highest score was 167
GPA: 3.1
Undergraduate debt: 40k
Goal: Washington, D.C. and not homeless.

At the end of the day: (COA assuming annual tuition increases of 5% - scholarship, every number padded and rounded to look extra awful)

GW: 160,707
William & Mary: 118,505
Washington & Lee: 76,123

The above would be paid by a full Stafford (61,500 over the 3 years) and the remainder would be in PLUS loans.

I also got into UT Austin and Iowa but have not heard anything about scholarships yet.

My goal, as stated above, is to work in Washington, D.C. and not be homeless. I am here to get a more personal touch to the depressing reality that is GW with that much debt. It is my dream school for every reason you could choose a dream school, but the bottom line is, I want to have a stimulating job and I don't want to be miserable for 25 years while I am paying off my debt. I have been reading about GW nightmares in OCI and I just want someone to tell me I am not entirely insane for still wanting to attend GW despite all of this.

Rip apart my dreams. Thank you very much for your time.

[kippercd]

Dont attend gw for that much money

[mcmand]

Save your money. It's not worth it. Don't need to say this viciously to state the obvious.

I have about that much in law school student loans (graduated this year) and I sorely wish I didn't. It's expensive to pay back, and it sucks.

If you're flexible on job opportunities and you want to minimize debt, W&L isn't a terrible option. But I don't know enough about your goals other than living in DC to advise you better.

[Br3v]

Is it the city itself that you like? Why not get a cool job that doesn't require a JD at a think tank, on the Hill, etc?

[UVA2B]

I mean, you acknowledge eclipsing $200k debt for GW is a bad idea, and yet you can't be dissuaded from taking it?

It seems your desire to be in DC is trumping the rest of your rational thought here, and that has to stop. If you went to GW, you'd have debt that would all but require you get Biglaw (in DC, no less since that's where you want to end up). And you've already mentioned how you're uncomfortable with the debt if you carried it on an IBR/PAYE type of program, which is the only way you could handle the debt burden absent PSLF, which is in itself a gamble.

Cutting through the rest of your justifications, what you're really hoping is that you can end up not homeless, in DC, handling your loans, and working as an attorney. Given your current debt burden, plus what you'd take on in law school debt, those goals are probably misaligned. You can't comfortably plan for all of that to happen. If you went to GW, it absolutely could happen, just like it could happen if you went to W&M or W&L. But you have no idea whether it'll happen at any of them, because in every case you're gambling on less than favorable odds in the calculus you've created for yourself.

If you want to be in DC and not homeless, don't take on significant extra debt, even if that means not becoming a lawyer. If you want to become a lawyer that badly and these are your options, start reconciling ending up in less desirable parts of VA while avoiding homelessness.

[cavalier1138]

Even with your extremely vague goals, I don't see how GW ended up being a dream school in any sense of the word.

[kippercd]

Introduction: I feel like I am stuck in a nerve-wrecking David Lynch film. I am surrealistically watching myself make the same bad decisions that so many before me have made and are trying desperately to save me from, and there seems to be nothing I can do to stop myself. My hope would be that, as I learn more about how terrible a decision attending my top-choice (GW) would be, I would lean further away from making such a decision. Instead, I just remain overwhelmingly committed to it and increasingly depressed about what a bad decision it may be. I am here for some straight talk. I have read numerous threads answering similar questions, but I need the personal touch. Thank you very much for reading.

LSAT: three tries all within points of each other, highest score was 167
GPA: 3.1
Undergraduate debt: 40k
Goal: Washington, D.C. and not homeless.

At the end of the day: (COA assuming annual tuition increases of 5% - scholarship, every number padded and rounded to look extra awful)

GW: 160,707
William & Mary: 118,505
Washington & Lee: 76,123

The above would be paid by a full Stafford (61,500 over the 3 years) and the remainder would be in PLUS loans.

I also got into UT Austin and Iowa but have not heard anything about scholarships yet.

My goal, as stated above, is to work in Washington, D.C. and not be homeless. I am here to get a more personal touch to the depressing reality that is GW with that much debt. It is my dream school for every reason you could choose a dream school, but the bottom line is, I want to have a stimulating job and I don't want to be miserable for 25 years while I am paying off my debt. I have been reading about GW nightmares in OCI and I just want someone to tell me I am not entirely insane for still wanting to attend GW despite all of this.

Rip apart my dreams. Thank you very much for your time.

Also don't forget to add your undergrad debt to those totals, plus all the interest they will earn. You should take some time off to pay those down first

[mcmand]

OP are you K-JD?

[Rowinguy2009]

Look I live in DC and I love it, but this place is one of the most expensive cities in the country. I have zero debt and even I constantly feel like I'm hemorrhaging money. I can't imagine living here with essentially 200k in loans. Do you ever aspire in your whole entire life own property? Good luck coming up with a downpayment.

Edit to add -- I chose a school that wasn't really my first choice due to the scholarship offer. I felt a bit, at the time, like I wasn't "following my dreams" or something like that. Now I talk to my friends and coworkers who mention paying back a significant chunk of their paycheck to loans, and I am thankful every single time I have one of those conversations that I made the decision that I did. It made my post top-law-schools.com so much better. You're considering doing an extreme version of the opposite plan - take on huge debt then go live in one of the most expensive cities in the country so you can go to your "dream" school for three years. Your school is not that important and those three years will be over before you know it.

Don't do it.

[pancakes3]

DC or bust is a tough way to go because all the jobs in DC require T14 or top 15% non-T14 credentials: biglaw, bigfed, non-profits, boutiques. There's no midlaw and there's no shitlaw. I'm sure you've read that GW's biglaw employment numbers are inflated by patent hiring. It's really dicey coming out of GW. The adjacent markets aren't much better. Maryland is virtually nonexistent, and Northern Virginia is small and insular. I'm assuming you've got Virginia ties considering you're applying to 2 VA schools and are dc-or-bust. You might land in northern virginia and be DC-adjacent but even then it's tough bc of the sheer number of schools that feed into the area. You'll have WM/WL classmates, UVA strikeouts, other T14 students looking to move back to the area, Mason/Richmond grads, and all the DC students who are scrambling and taking the VA bar (UDC, AU, GW, GT, Catholic, Howard) and it's just a messy, oversaturated, hypercompetitive market. Not to mention the midlaw market, even though relatively large to other areas' midlaw markets, is a small market overall with each firm only hiring a handful of new grads (classes of like 2-4), if any.

On top of that, mid/small-law may elect to hire after ppl passed the bar, so you might not even get interviews until November after you graduate. That's 6-9 (or more) months after you graduate where you'll be unemployed, 2 months of which you can't work at all bc you'll be doing bar prep.

GW at near sticker is financial suicide. WM at over 100k is financial suicide. WL at 76k is closing in on financial suicide. You'd be better off taking UT at sticker and taking your chances at Texas biglaw.

[somewhereclassof2021]

I mean, you acknowledge eclipsing $200k debt for GW is a bad idea, and yet you can't be dissuaded from taking it?

It seems your desire to be in DC is trumping the rest of your rational thought here, and that has to stop. If you went to GW, you'd have debt that would all but require you get Biglaw (in DC, no less since that's where you want to end up). And you've already mentioned how you're uncomfortable with the debt if you carried it on an IBR/PAYE type of program, which is the only way you could handle the debt burden absent PSLF, which is in itself a gamble.

Cutting through the rest of your justifications, what you're really hoping is that you can end up not homeless, in DC, handling your loans, and working as an attorney. Given your current debt burden, plus what you'd take on in law school debt, those goals are probably misaligned. You can't comfortably plan for all of that to happen. If you went to GW, it absolutely could happen, just like it could happen if you went to W&M or W&L. But you have no idea whether it'll happen at any of them, because in every case you're gambling on less than favorable odds in the calculus you've created for yourself.

If you want to be in DC and not homeless, don't take on significant extra debt, even if that means not becoming a lawyer. If you want to become a lawyer that badly and these are your options, start reconciling ending up in less desirable parts of VA while avoiding homelessness.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me - I am not sure why people waste their energy on one-sentence answers. I thought I had made it pretty clear from my post that I know everything that can be told in one sentence.

I CAN be dissuaded, which really was the objective of this post. I needed someone to do exactly what you did and apply my options to my goals from a third perspective. I appreciate your effort and I am finally feeling how bad of a choice going to GW would be. If this makes any sense at all, my GUT wanted me to go (all feeeeelings) and every other fiber of my being was begging me to make a smarter decision. To listen to advice. I normally don't have any problem with this, but I spent too long researching how to get into schools and not enough time researching how much I should pay once I've been accepted. I didn't think I would be accepted anywhere, and now I am suffering because of underselling myself. I definitely don't want to do that again (now that I got into Texas I wish I had blanketed the T14 instead of putting so many safety schools that end up all being useless). Long story short, I will not attend GW for that price. This post was really trying to put a piece of straw on the camel's back, and you did a concise job. I'm just sad. It sucks to not have money, story of many people's lives who are much worse off than I am.

Would you agree with the poster below who believes that all three of these choices are "financial suicide"? I know about GW, but how do you feel about those other two choices? At this point, I guess I start reconciling with living somewhere else. How do people decide where the fuck they want to practice? I assumed it would be around family but my family is all here around D.C. Moving away, I just don't have a huge preference, besides wanting to stay on the East and not stray too far from a major city. Is even that too naiive?

The more I learn, the more I recognize that I do not know... definitely not how that quote goes, but hopefully you get my drift.

[mcmand]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me - I am not sure why people waste their energy on one-sentence answers. I thought I had made it pretty clear from my post that I know everything that can be told in one sentence.

JFC get a therapist

[somewhereclassof2021]

Is it the city itself that you like? Why not get a cool job that doesn't require a JD at a think tank, on the Hill, etc?

Yes, it is the city itself. I would get a "cool" job if I could - I have no experience outside of law firms and minimum wage positions, and a B.A., and I just don't think that will cut it...

Also, I thought this would be assumed, but I guess it is worth stating - I do love the law. I did not pick this career out of a hat. I have loved my time working in law but after a year was bored and needed more responsibility, more stimulation - I wanted the job of the attorney, not mine of the assistant. They had NO problem letting me do the work of the attorney, but while getting paid almost nothing and not being able to take credit for the work. I was hoping to have more interesting work, harder work, not fill-in-the-blank work or attempt-to-make-your-client-behave work. Now I am realizing that apparently those jobs are few and far between and I won't get there unless I go to a top school and am also at the top of the class. There is no doubt I accidentally felt that "I'm special, I've always been an outlier, I can bet on myself" feeling that 100% of law school applicants certainly share.

Thank you for reading, and thank you for responding!

[somewhereclassof2021]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me - I am not sure why people waste their energy on one-sentence answers. I thought I had made it pretty clear from my post that I know everything that can be told in one sentence.

JFC get a therapist

If this refers to your first post, I was not including it - you posted a question, a reasonable one, and I responded to it. I was referring to "Don't go." or something along those lines, which wasn't helpful. Believe me, if I could go back and not let outside pressures push me straight into an undergraduate degree that would land me in this $40k debt situation, I would, and then I would have a lot more freedom right now to explore other opportunities. If you happen to have other information on the path to think tanks and what-not (I thought those were unicorn jobs as well!) I would definitely appreciate and look into it. I am just worried about what kind of payments I could make in the meantime. On that going back in time bit, I would probably force myself to get a undergraduate degree in something useful...

Anyway, thanks for your question, and thanks for your plea to Jesus, I agree he needs one!

[blerggggg]

If you wanna live in dc so bad just go apply for a paralegal position and live in dc. While you’re at it, retake the lsat to make law school cheaper. Going into debt just to live in dc makes no sense. I lived in dc for a couple years and this “I’ll go into six figure debt for dc” makes no sense to me: the food sucks, the metro is worse, and the people are bland. But you do you.

[somewhereclassof2021]

OP are you K-JD?

Yes and no. I have not taken time off, but it has also taken me many more years than the average bear. I have also worked 100% of the time, which definitely gives me a perspective advantage (and interview advantage) over the K-JD, but yeah, because I have always at least been in one class, I am K-JD.

[somewhereclassof2021]

If you wanna live in dc so bad just go apply for a paralegal position and live in dc. While you’re at it, retake the lsat to make law school cheaper. Going into debt just to live in dc makes no sense. I lived in dc for a couple years and this “I’ll go into six figure debt for dc” makes no sense to me: the food sucks, the metro is worse, and the people are bland. But you do you.

Retaking the LSAT is definitely something I want to do. My fear right now comes down to my undergraduate loans which are about to come calling, since I am now a graduate. I took three tests and scored far below my practice scores on each one. I was so exhausted after the third (and the rule was still as such) that I didn't think about taking another. Now, with the rule change, it is tempting. I worry that a couple extra points still won't be enough to get past my super-shit GPA. Mostly I worry about how to make payments.

Where are you living that you find better food than in D.C.? I know people are going to take this way too seriously, but having access to diverse ethnic foods is a serious lifestyle consideration of mine.

Also, it is definitely possible that I am one of those bland people, which is what makes it appealing. I don't know how I'd be able to tell.

Thank you very much for reading and for taking the time to respond. Obviously, I will "do me" but it is really fucking helpful to hear from people who are not laymen or lawyers decades separated from the experience of choosing a school.

[Br3v]

OP, I think the best course of action is to work as a paralegal or something, study for the LSAT, and then apply to school after you have a year or two of post-college experience. No downside to that, and law school will still be there.

[somewhereclassof2021]

Look I live in DC and I love it, but this place is one of the most expensive cities in the country. I have zero debt and even I constantly feel like I'm hemorrhaging money. I can't imagine living here with essentially 200k in loans. Do you ever aspire in your whole entire life own property? Good luck coming up with a downpayment.

Edit to add -- I chose a school that wasn't really my first choice due to the scholarship offer. I felt a bit, at the time, like I wasn't "following my dreams" or something like that. Now I talk to my friends and coworkers who mention paying back a significant chunk of their paycheck to loans, and I am thankful every single time I have one of those conversations that I made the decision that I did. It made my post top-law-schools.com so much better. You're considering doing an extreme version of the opposite plan - take on huge debt then go live in one of the most expensive cities in the country so you can go to your "dream" school for three years. Your school is not that important and those three years will be over before you know it.

Don't do it.

Thank you very much for this - your edit is incredibly helpful. I have a couple full rides under my belt, but the idea of moving away to a 50+ ranked school just seems like a bad choice. I have always been a person who could make choices based on logic and not on emotion and suddenly BAM, I'm an emotional little bitch with her heart set on nonsense. Thank you so much for telling me your story. Would you mind PM-ing me the school you went to that still ended up landing you a job in D.C.?

[blerggggg]

If you wanna live in dc so bad just go apply for a paralegal position and live in dc. While you’re at it, retake the lsat to make law school cheaper. Going into debt just to live in dc makes no sense. I lived in dc for a couple years and this “I’ll go into six figure debt for dc” makes no sense to me: the food sucks, the metro is worse, and the people are bland. But you do you.

Retaking the LSAT is definitely something I want to do. My fear right now comes down to my undergraduate loans which are about to come calling, since I am now a graduate. I took three tests and scored far below my practice scores on each one. I was so exhausted after the third (and the rule was still as such) that I didn't think about taking another. Now, with the rule change, it is tempting. I worry that a couple extra points still won't be enough to get past my super-shit GPA. Mostly I worry about how to make payments.

Where are you living that you find better food than in D.C.? I know people are going to take this way too seriously, but having access to diverse ethnic foods is a serious lifestyle consideration of mine.

Also, it is definitely possible that I am one of those bland people, which is what makes it appealing. I don't know how I'd be able to tell.

Thank you very much for reading and for taking the time to respond. Obviously, I will "do me" but it is really fucking helpful to hear from people who are not laymen or lawyers decades separated from the experience of choosing a school.

Okay I hear you on the loan situation but deferring your loans just to take on more loans isn’t the only solution. If I were you, I would try to find a job in dc to pay off the loans. Even just paying the monthly minimum is better than taking out more loans for GW. While you’re working, keep studying for the LSAT! It is the worst thing ever but even gaining a couple points could result in a lot of money, which will benefit your debt burden later. You can do it, just be persistent, don’t take out more loans just to avoid paying off your loans.

Frankly, I’m just not a fan of the dc food scene but maybe I’m a brat. There’s a lot of good Ethiopian food. But frankly that’s about it. NW DC food < any other quadrant. Although most of the Jose andres places are delicious

I loved DC when I first moved there but it’s draining to live in. However, you might like it better than I do; everyone has their own opinion.

[somewhereclassof2021]

OP, I think the best course of action is to work as a paralegal or something, study for the LSAT, and then apply to school after you have a year or two of post-college experience. No downside to that, and law school will still be there.

The downside is my undergraduate debt. Paralegals are paid pennies and I'll need to begin making payments because I have graduated. If I were debt-free at this moment, I would absolutely agree, just to take the LSAT a fourth time and finally get a score I'd be satisfied with. Do you think that, in this situation, it would be worth looking into deferment? This would definitely just be for another LSAT, as I have plenty of law-firm WE. I played around a lot with numbers on LSN and it is hard to predict how much my cycle would change. I would need to jump big to offset my GPA. Then, if I don't, I'm in the same position I am in now.

This is definitely a consideration - thanks again for keeping with me, I really appreciate your help.

[somewhereclassof2021]

If you wanna live in dc so bad just go apply for a paralegal position and live in dc. While you’re at it, retake the lsat to make law school cheaper. Going into debt just to live in dc makes no sense. I lived in dc for a couple years and this “I’ll go into six figure debt for dc” makes no sense to me: the food sucks, the metro is worse, and the people are bland. But you do you.

Retaking the LSAT is definitely something I want to do. My fear right now comes down to my undergraduate loans which are about to come calling, since I am now a graduate. I took three tests and scored far below my practice scores on each one. I was so exhausted after the third (and the rule was still as such) that I didn't think about taking another. Now, with the rule change, it is tempting. I worry that a couple extra points still won't be enough to get past my super-shit GPA. Mostly I worry about how to make payments.

Where are you living that you find better food than in D.C.? I know people are going to take this way too seriously, but having access to diverse ethnic foods is a serious lifestyle consideration of mine.

Also, it is definitely possible that I am one of those bland people, which is what makes it appealing. I don't know how I'd be able to tell.

Thank you very much for reading and for taking the time to respond. Obviously, I will "do me" but it is really fucking helpful to hear from people who are not laymen or lawyers decades separated from the experience of choosing a school.

Okay I hear you on the loan situation but deferring your loans just to take on more loans isn’t the only solution. If I were you, I would try to find a job in dc to pay off the loans. Even just paying the monthly minimum is better than taking out more loans for GW. While you’re working, keep studying for the LSAT! It is the worst thing ever but even gaining a couple points could result in a lot of money, which will benefit your debt burden later. You can do it, just be persistent, don’t take out more loans just to avoid paying off your loans.

Frankly, I’m just not a fan of the dc food scene but maybe I’m a brat. There’s a lot of good Ethiopian food. But frankly that’s about it. NW DC food < any other quadrant. Although most of the Jose andres places are delicious

I loved DC when I first moved there but it’s draining to live in. However, you might like it better than I do; everyone has their own opinion.

Yes, the Ethiopian is my go-to! Regarding everything else, you are completely right about deferring just to get more loans - god, what a situation. Any chance you would mind telling me where you are now? As for the LSAT, you're right, persistence is key. I have spent so long on this damn test... now that my goals are smashed to pieces, any opinion on taking a full-ride to a T50-100?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I’m not sure that deferment is any better than just getting on an income-based repayment plan - the latter doesn’t pay *much* down on your loans, but it’s more than deferment, and since it’s tailored to your income you’re only making payments you can afford. It at least gives you time to think about your options more, maybe increase your LSAT.

[jacketyellow]

I went to GW. I regret it everyday. I was one of the lucky ones: I got biglaw and am able to finance my loans. All I can say is: don't go. GW sells you a huge bill of goods.

Don't listen to others on this thread, though. There are midlaw and small law opportunities. And, you don't have to go to a T14 and graduate in the top 15-20% to get a job in DC. I didn't graduate at the top of my class (more like median) and still got a biglaw job. (I still hate my life though.) There are many midlaw opportunities around (especially in Georgetown), and they make good money. In addition, a lot of GW grads are working here, and most people either take the NY or DC bar exams.

All those attributes aside, don't go to GW at that money. I know you're anxious, but seriously think about your decision before you dive.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Re: full ride at 50-100 - there’s obviously still COL and opportunity cost, but to some extent once you get outside the top 20 or so schools rankings aren’t that important - USNWR 72 is better than USNWR 45 if 72 is free and feeds into your chosen market, and 45 doesn’t. The thing is that DC is hard because it has a lot of schools competing for limited jobs.