Duke vs Michigan vs Penn Forum

[natlaw22]

Thanks in advance for the help!

Total COA at Duke $180,000 ($55k scholarship)
Total COA at Michigan $150,000 ($90k scholarship)
Total COA at Penn $200,000 ($40k scholarship)

Goals: big law in DC (don't want to be in NY), potentially interested in environmental law.

I've visited both Ann Arbor and Durham and liked both. I think Michigan has a nicer law school, but I like the weather in Durham more. I liked Penn, though I prefer the small city feels in Ann Arbor and Durham.

I'm more risk averse than debt averse, which points me away from Michigan with their big law numbers, but am keeping it in the running to see what you all have to say!

[waldorf]

Stats? All debt-financed?

[guynourmin]

I don't think Duke or Penn put you at any advantage over Michigan in terms of DC Biglaw.

[nyu2019maybeplease]

If you liked Michigan significantly more, go there. If it's a tossup and you don't care about the money, and think the weather will make a difference in terms of how you feel and perform, go to Duke.

You may or may not get D.C. Biglaw, but it's grades that will make the difference, not which school you go to of those.

[existentialcrisis]

Michigan, but D.C. Biglaw will be hard to get from any of these schools.

[proteinshake]

have you tried negotiating Michigan against Duke? tons of people have raised their Duke offer with their Michigan offer.

[chargers21]

have you tried negotiating Michigan against Duke? tons of people have raised their Duke offer with their Michigan offer.

I second this. Duke is very receptive to negotiating up with offers from Michigan. Personal experience and anecdotal evidence from others.

[hangingtree]

100% Michigan, unless you can get one of the other schools also down to $150,000 COA. The difference between $150,000 and $180,000 is an entire year of big law essentially.

And I've never bought the numbers-based argument for Duke over Michigan/Berkeley. Self-selection. What kind of people do you think would choose Berkeley/Michigan over Penn/Duke, and vice versa. I only have conjecture and anecdotal evidence to base this on (obviously), but if we're all choosing basically equivalent schools at basically the same price, wouldn't character/personality play a huge role?

I'm sure this self-selection thing, even if true, turns out to hurt biglaw chances. Maybe there's less infrastructure at these schools to help people get biglaw, or maybe it diverts your attention from your biglaw goals/makes you seem less hireable. But do you really think firms generally set different GPA floors for Berkeley/Michigan vs. Penn/Duke? No way. That is by far the most important metric if you want the school that offers you the best chance at biglaw.

[michlaw]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast. The only hedge is total debt which is a big number. 50k more to be repaid in 10 years is a big deal. 50k over a lifetime not so much. If your choice is between M and D then M.

[Kungfu Wontons]

$50k is negligible over a lifetime. Go where you wanna. That seems to be Duke so go there.

[hangingtree]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, as I assume you went/are going to Michigan.

I don't think being east coast or Ivy matters. Philadelphia has a healthier legal market than Detroit, but I don't see how being simply on the east coast would help you get biglaw in NY/DC. And I think Penn and Michigan have an equal amount of cachet in the legal world--I don't think Penn being Ivy matters. I highly doubt Penn generally has lower GPA floors than Michigan. Anyone who is making hiring decisions at law firms will consider Michigan and Penn to be equals.

I know numbers is all we have to go on, but we also should consider other factors that may be at play, key one here being self-selection.

I think we can then definitely rule out Duke if it is $30,000 more expensive. I think paying $30,000 more for Penn with its stronger home market, equal/more cachet and stronger numbers is defensible, but not Duke.

I guess my point is that our lawyerly risk aversion is overpowering our reasoning capacities here. Simply because employment stats are (by far, admittedly) the clearest indication of good a school is, when there is reason to believe other factors are at play, we should give them due weight. Why would we do this? 30,000, or 50,000, greenbacks.

[existentialcrisis]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast. The only hedge is total debt which is a big number. 50k more to be repaid in 10 years is a big deal. 50k over a lifetime not so much. If your choice is between M and D then M.

Ivy thing doesn't matter. I don't think Penn gives any boost for DC. I'm not even positive it gives much of a boost for NYC.

[proteinshake]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast. The only hedge is total debt which is a big number. 50k more to be repaid in 10 years is a big deal. 50k over a lifetime not so much. If your choice is between M and D then M.

Ivy thing doesn't matter. I don't think Penn gives any boost for DC. I'm not even positive it gives much of a boost for NYC.

is it even worth more than Duke given Duke's latest employment stats?

[UVA2B]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast. The only hedge is total debt which is a big number. 50k more to be repaid in 10 years is a big deal. 50k over a lifetime not so much. If your choice is between M and D then M.

Ivy thing doesn't matter. I don't think Penn gives any boost for DC. I'm not even positive it gives much of a boost for NYC.

Yeah, there is some weird rationale in this thread comparing peers. They should be compared based on cost more than anything. If they're equal, pick based on other stuff, but if they're not, and you want Biglaw (DC or mostly elsewhere), pick the cheapest option.

$50k isn't much over a career, but you know what else isn't different over the course of a career? Graduating from Penn instead of Duke or Duke instead of Michigan, or whatever superiority you might believe among peers.

ETA: Really it was the two more recent posts, the earlier posts are all in line with reality

[existentialcrisis]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast. The only hedge is total debt which is a big number. 50k more to be repaid in 10 years is a big deal. 50k over a lifetime not so much. If your choice is between M and D then M.

Ivy thing doesn't matter. I don't think Penn gives any boost for DC. I'm not even positive it gives much of a boost for NYC.

is it even worth more than Duke given Duke's latest employment stats?

I don't think it's worth more than Duke for OP.

I don't think it's worth anything substantial over Duke, but I also don't think 1 years worth of employment stats mean very much.

[chargers21]

Duke does have some value for OP in that if they were to not get DC, would they perhaps prefer a southern market over NYC? Mich could hold value for Chicago, maybe? Penn could hold value for Philly. I picked Duke because I don't want NYC and I liked the non-NYC biglaw prospects they help with

[existentialcrisis]

Duke does have some value for OP in that if they were to not get DC, would they perhaps prefer a southern market over NYC? Mich could hold value for Chicago, maybe? Penn could hold value for Philly. I picked Duke because I don't want NYC and I liked the non-NYC biglaw prospects they help with

How much does Duke help with southern Markets for people not from there though?

I think Michigan is for sure the best deal here. But OP should for sure try to negotiate.

[proteinshake]

Duke does have some value for OP in that if they were to not get DC, would they perhaps prefer a southern market over NYC? Mich could hold value for Chicago, maybe? Penn could hold value for Philly. I picked Duke because I don't want NYC and I liked the non-NYC biglaw prospects they help with

How much does Duke help with southern Markets for people not from there though?

I think Michigan is for sure the best deal here. But OP should for sure try to negotiate.

yeah OP really needs to take that Mich offer to Duke.

[michlaw]

Penn is probably worth 50k more. It's Ivy and east coast.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, as I assume you went/are going to Michigan.

I don't think being east coast or Ivy matters. Philadelphia has a healthier legal market than Detroit, but I don't see how being simply on the east coast would help you get biglaw in NY/DC. And I think Penn and Michigan have an equal amount of cachet in the legal world--I don't think Penn being Ivy matters. I highly doubt Penn generally has lower GPA floors than Michigan. Anyone who is making hiring decisions at law firms will consider Michigan and Penn to be equals.

I know numbers is all we have to go on, but we also should consider other factors that may be at play, key one here being self-selection.

I think we can then definitely rule out Duke if it is $30,000 more expensive. I think paying $30,000 more for Penn with its stronger home market, equal/more cachet and stronger numbers is defensible, but not Duke.

I guess my point is that our lawyerly risk aversion is overpowering our reasoning capacities here. Simply because employment stats are (by far, admittedly) the clearest indication of good a school is, when there is reason to believe other factors are at play, we should give them due weight. Why would we do this? 30,000, or 50,000, greenbacks.

I do think east coast matters on the east coast. And Ivy's matter to other Ivy's and on the east coast there are lots of them. I think Penn matters particularly if you look at anything other than law. I liked Michigan a great deal but it is it's own island. The cache of the Big Ten is a sporting conference. East coasters they start craving Ivy's in preschool and it never really stops.

[cavalier1138]

I do think east coast matters on the east coast. And Ivy's matter to other Ivy's and on the east coast there are lots of them. I think Penn matters particularly if you look at anything other than law. I liked Michigan a great deal but it is it's own island. The cache of the Big Ten is a sporting conference. East coasters they start craving Ivy's in preschool and it never really stops.

Ivy for undergrad is not the same as Ivy for law school. That's pretty common knowledge.

[michlaw]

I do think east coast matters on the east coast. And Ivy's matter to other Ivy's and on the east coast there are lots of them. I think Penn matters particularly if you look at anything other than law. I liked Michigan a great deal but it is it's own island. The cache of the Big Ten is a sporting conference. East coasters they start craving Ivy's in preschool and it never really stops.

Ivy for undergrad is not the same as Ivy for law school. That's pretty common knowledge.

Your comments always seem to be those of one looking at the world through a keyhole. Good luck with that.

[gargleblaster]

im pretty sure op has already had to make a decision by now. but the speculation is still fun i guess

[hangingtree]

I do think east coast matters on the east coast. And Ivy's matter to other Ivy's and on the east coast there are lots of them. I think Penn matters particularly if you look at anything other than law. I liked Michigan a great deal but it is it's own island. The cache of the Big Ten is a sporting conference. East coasters they start craving Ivy's in preschool and it never really stops.

I mean, I hear you, but I'm not sure all of this translates into Penn Law being $50K better than Mich Law. We're talking about legal employment, not the layperson's opinion of Michigan vs. Penn prestige. If your point is that a Penn Law hoodie will get you more looks running in Central Park than a Michigan Law one, point is taken. But in the legal world they're equals, even for the east coast lawyers who grew up craving the Ivy's.

This talk of prestige really makes me feel hollow. OP, I think you got about all the information you need now to make your call. You have great options. Enjoy law school.

[cron1834]

No one cares about the Ivy League for law school. It's not a thing. Grow up.

[grades??]

No one cares about the Ivy League for law school. It's not a thing. Grow up.

Agreed, considering there are a bunch of schools ahead of some ivy league law schools that aren't "ivy". The ivy league is just an athletics conference anyway. Do people look down at someone who went to Stanford or Duke undergrad when both are ranked higher than at least the ivy league? No. That is silliness.