Michigan vs Penn Forum

[natlaw22]

.

[existentialcrisis]

Total COA at Michigan ~$150k after 10 years of loan repayment ($90k scholarship)

Total COA at Penn ~$250k after 10 years of loan repayment ($40k scholarship)

Goals: Big law for a few years preferably in DC. Potentially want to clerk. Interested in environmental law.

SO is applying to phd programs in clinical psych next year and believes Penn would be better in terms school choices nearby. I visited Ann Arbor and loved it, but am from Florida and have never lived in the cold (though I think philly would be pretty cold too). I'm visiting Philly in 2 weeks.

Thanks for the help!!

Michigan is the much better choice in a vacuum. Only you can value the SO thing though.

You're likely going to need good grades for DC.

[guynourmin]

Penn is definitely better in terms of "school choices nearby" because there aren't really other schools nearby Michigan, but could your SO not go to Michigan? Do they not have a (good) clinical phd program?

[rpupkin]

Sorry, no one on TLS can assess your SO's decision or put a dollar amount on the value of your relationship with your SO. But without the SO factor, the answer for you is: Michigan and it's not close.

[existentialcrisis]

Do you have other options? Seems like Duke has lots of other schools around although I have no idea about the strength of their psych programs.

[Borhas]

go to Penn if you think your marriage is worth more than 100k

[mwells56]

Penn is definitely better in terms of "school choices nearby" because there aren't really other schools nearby Michigan, but could your SO not go to Michigan? Do they not have a (good) clinical phd program?

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around. My roommate's mom has a PhD in linguistics from Wayne State University. There's also Michigan State, Eastern/Western/Central Michigan, Grand Valley State, Detroit-Mercy (not sure if public but it's there), and I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of.

Eastern's only like 5 miles from UM, and Wayne State and UDM are both in Detroit so that's less than an hour from AA. Not sure what the deal is with all their clinical psych programs or if they even have them but there are plenty of schools in the area.

[cavalier1138]

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around.

I'm not well versed in PhD programs in this field, so someone who is can correct me if I'm wrong. But if it's anything like other graduate programs, the difference between Michigan and Michigan State is like the difference between... Michigan and Michigan State for law school.

[mwells56]

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around.

I'm not well versed in PhD programs in this field, so someone who is can correct me if I'm wrong. But if it's anything like other graduate programs, the difference between Michigan and Michigan State is like the difference between... Michigan and Michigan State for law school.

From the people I know that have gotten/are trying to get PhD's, it's a lot different than trying to go to like med school/law school. Each school only accepts a handful (like, 5 or something) a year because they're university employees and get paid to research/teach while they work towards their degree. So I would imagine that even a wide gap between two schools is narrower than it may seem.

[guynourmin]

according to bestcounselingdegrees.com (so, obviously, this comment is to be taken seriously) Philly only has one top 50 clinical psych phd program (Temple) whereas both Michigan and Eastern Michigan (one town over) are ranked. Is your SO sure Philly is better? May last smart ass comment may have been totally wrong

[Borhas]

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around.

I'm not well versed in PhD programs in this field, so someone who is can correct me if I'm wrong. But if it's anything like other graduate programs, the difference between Michigan and Michigan State is like the difference between... Michigan and Michigan State for law school.

no PhD programs are much more specific, it's not analogous at all to law schools, only people in the fields actually know what is good or not

SO probably knows best which programs are better or not

[cavalier1138]

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around.

I'm not well versed in PhD programs in this field, so someone who is can correct me if I'm wrong. But if it's anything like other graduate programs, the difference between Michigan and Michigan State is like the difference between... Michigan and Michigan State for law school.

no PhD programs are much more specific, it's not analogous at all to law schools, only people in the fields actually know what is good or not

SO probably knows best which programs are better or not

I didn't mean analogous in the sense that it follows the same ranking system. I meant analogous in the sense that it's irrelevant if Michigan (the state) has five different schools offering this particular doctorate. What's relevant is how good the programs are. The analogy to the law school rankings was to point out how silly it would be to say that Michigan is an awesome state for law schools because if you can't get in to Michigan, you have Michigan State and Cooley to fall back on.

[cron1834]

Sorry, no one on TLS can assess your SO's decision or put a dollar amount on the value of your relationship with your SO. But without the SO factor, the answer for you is: Michigan and it's not close.

Agree with this. Can't do math for you re: personal things, but it's pretty clear that Penn, while safer than Michigan, is not worth a hundred grand more. Considering lifetime interest costs on top of the $250k at Penn, that's just way too much money unless you're independently wealthy.

[mwells56]

As an undergrad at Mich I can say that our psych department is extremely good and not easy to get into the PhD program. However, the state of Michigan has an enormous public university system and I'm sure that there are solid PhD programs around.

I'm not well versed in PhD programs in this field, so someone who is can correct me if I'm wrong. But if it's anything like other graduate programs, the difference between Michigan and Michigan State is like the difference between... Michigan and Michigan State for law school.

no PhD programs are much more specific, it's not analogous at all to law schools, only people in the fields actually know what is good or not

SO probably knows best which programs are better or not

I didn't mean analogous in the sense that it follows the same ranking system. I meant analogous in the sense that it's irrelevant if Michigan (the state) has five different schools offering this particular doctorate. What's relevant is how good the programs are. The analogy to the law school rankings was to point out how silly it would be to say that Michigan is an awesome state for law schools because if you can't get in to Michigan, you have Michigan State and Cooley to fall back on.

Except that's not what I was saying. All I meant were that multiple options might be there, and that it's something to look into. I'm also pretty sure that for something like PhD's it's more important just to have one as opposed to where it's from (unlike law school). Not positive though.

[stego]

It depends on the field as to how much just having a Ph.D matters vs having one from a specific school. Going into academia is a lot different from going into industry or clinical practice.

I wouldn't know what to look for in a clinical psychology program but your SO would possibly have a few options in Michigan and Ohio vs several in PA, Delaware and New Jersey.

This is assuming your SO does in fact apply to such a program next year and actually gets in somewhere (which might be hard to do, I'm not sure).

https://www.socialpsychology.org/clinrank.htm

[cavalier1138]

Except that's not what I was saying. All I meant were that multiple options might be there, and that it's something to look into. I'm also pretty sure that for something like PhD's it's more important just to have one as opposed to where it's from (unlike law school). Not positive though.

As much as this may be field-dependent, that's definitely not true. School pedigree still matters for your doctorate, but some otherwise lackluster schools may have unexpectedly good doctorate programs in specific areas.

[OutCold]

I went to Penn and my wife did a PhD at the same time, fwiw. PhD's take a long time--longer than a JD. That means you will likely be doing long distance on the tail end. It's way easier to keep a marriage going between DC or NYC and Philly than it will be if she is still up in the Michigan area.

[michlaw]

Michigan.

The other depends on how significant. The average age of marriage (if that's your choice)in the USA is 29 so they say. Glad I didn't make my choice based on the SO of the time. I'm sure she is also.

Pretty much all of Michigan's and Penn's grad schools are top 10 with Penn a couple slots ahead in every case. Still all top notch programs. Penn isn't worth 100+ interest more for law school.

[stego]

Michigan makes a lot more sense for you debt-wise. I'm concerned about the fact your SO won't be applying until a year after you and you don't know where they'll get in, if they even get in anywhere.

[drillteam]

Second this. Getting into clinical psych PhD programs is fantastically competitive--5% to 10% admit rates. Maybe you should consider holding out for a year from law school (is a gap year available?) to see where your SO lands and then making a decision.