Alabama $$$$ vs NYU vs army of waitlists Forum

[foregetaboutdre]

I had a free consult with one of the partners of the Spivey Consulting group today. I have a lot to think about but I am still leaning towards attending law school in the fall.

We discussed the weaknesses in my application. Reapplying seems like a bit of an uphill climb because all the T13 schools I've applied to will have my old application on file.

I do feel ppl on here are a bit too negative on Alabama. It's probably not right for most people. But the "have fun living in Alabama forever" seems like hyperbole. It looks like between 60 and 40% of the last few classes stayed in the state. If you assume the majority of students are from AL and that those ones are more likely to stay, then the out of state students are probably more likely to leave than to stay. Granted, I'm sure most of them stay in the Southeast or Texas.

The problem with Bama is that you can go to Texas or a major market, but that requires great grades etc.. I'd have a hunch a big majority will go home to neighboring states to practice (of the kids who practice out of state). I'm not trying to dissuade you from Bama, but I transferred from a school with a similar rank. I knew a person with a full + a stipend with stats much better than T14 medians. The person ended up not being a good law student. Being a median law student at a T14 or sometimes a T20 (like Vandy) will give you a fighting chance to work at a biglaw/midlaw/good boutique with a legitimate summer associate program. I know people at my old school who seem to be working at good firms in their region but are essentially paid hourly with no assurances of a postgrad job. It's a much tougher road to look for jobs post-bar IMO. Just FWIW.

Also if you have a hunch that you have a "poison pill" LOR (e.g. you didn't know the professor), I'd sub it out with some work reference that you'd know would be positive. I had intern supervisors write me LORs and they worked (probably not great, but they didn't hurt)

[cron1834]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

[stego]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

I don't think there is a single glaring problem like a "don't admit this person" LOR. I think it's a bunch of little things:
- C&F-wise, there is nothing that would cause problems with getting admitted to the bar. But I was told my long string of minor traffic violations calls my judgment into question, and there's also the issue of having left my MA program for 3 years
- worse MA GPA than uGPA
(i didn't get an MA in order to get into law school, obviously, but it kind of sucks that I'm probably worse off for having done so.)
- old LORs
- resume with lot of employment gaps
- PS that makes law school sound like a fall-back option after other things didn't work out (which, to be fair, is kind of what it is)

At this point like I said earlier I feel like reapplying would be difficult because the schools have my old application on file. And if I got new LORs, I'm not sure who I'd ask at this point for the second one.

[IExistedOnceBefore]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

I don't think there is a single glaring problem like a "don't admit this person" LOR. I think it's a bunch of little things:
- C&F-wise, there is nothing that would cause problems with getting admitted to the bar. But I was told my long string of minor traffic violations calls my judgment into question, and there's also the issue of having left my MA program for 3 years
- worse MA GPA than uGPA
(i didn't get an MA in order to get into law school, obviously, but it kind of sucks that I'm probably worse off for having done so.)
- old LORs
- resume with lot of employment gaps
- PS that makes law school sound like a fall-back option after other things didn't work out (which, to be fair, is kind of what it is)

At this point like I said earlier I feel like reapplying would be difficult because the schools have my old application on file. And if I got new LORs, I'm not sure who I'd ask at this point for the second one.

This makes sense. You're not a dedicated applicant and it shows so a T13 isn't going to waste money or time on you.

If even Spivey is saying that you might not do better reapplying; go to Alabama. But a majority of TLS isn't going to bless your choice, which is what it appears you want.

[stego]

i know you REALLY don't want to wait another year but trust me, this is not the RIGHT decision, it's the ONLY decision to make here.

sure, even if you apply again this cycle, maybe the t-13 won't bite. but i bet wustl will throw mad money your way. as for what to do for another year, i'd suggest going on a working holiday if you really don't have any plans whatsoever. this is your career we're talking about here. you're entering a profession that is extremely obsessed with prestige and grades (which have a pretty subjective component to them in the first place). the jobs available to you will depend on the jobs you had before them; the previous jobs will depend on your first job; your first job will depend on your school + grades. you see a trend here? starting off on the wrong foot will bring about disproportionately big career consequences later in this profession. don't hate the player, hate the game. in which case, you should take advantage of the rules of the game as much as possible. and your scores make it very, very possible. later in your career, that 1 additional year won't seem like anything.

this isn't a popular opinion on TLS but personally, i'd much rather go to ccn at sticker than alabama paying me a stipend to attend. but that may be b/c i probably have different career goals from you.

this isn't even a t13-or-bust scenario. if you were going to a good regional school on a scholarship like UW (univ of washington) that is home to a sizable (relatively) legal market aka seattle, then unless you have super-unicorny aspirations, it's prob worth it. this is why you should reapply regardless. even if the t-13 doesn't bite this time (unlikely btw), i'm sure you'll at least get a good regional school (with a good home market) with scholarship.

What do you mean by working holiday?

And as for WUSTL, maybe I should have applied there this year, but I kind of feel like in the cost/benefit between Alabama this year for free and a chance at WUSTL next year, it's not really worth it. like I just don't really think the difference between Alabama and WUSTL is worth a year of my life.

[carsondalywashere]

WashU would definitely give you more geographic mobility, and if you did change your mind, a legitimate shot at big law.

Sounds like you want to go now though, so do you.

[cron1834]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

I don't think there is a single glaring problem like a "don't admit this person" LOR. I think it's a bunch of little things:
- C&F-wise, there is nothing that would cause problems with getting admitted to the bar. But I was told my long string of minor traffic violations calls my judgment into question, and there's also the issue of having left my MA program for 3 years
- worse MA GPA than uGPA
(i didn't get an MA in order to get into law school, obviously, but it kind of sucks that I'm probably worse off for having done so.)
- old LORs
- resume with lot of employment gaps
- PS that makes law school sound like a fall-back option after other things didn't work out (which, to be fair, is kind of what it is)

At this point like I said earlier I feel like reapplying would be difficult because the schools have my old application on file. And if I got new LORs, I'm not sure who I'd ask at this point for the second one.

A really long string of minor offenses might be a problem. I don't think having a convoluted grad school or work history is a problem, though -- it wasn't for me. Now, job-hunting may be a different story, but admissions probably doesn't care much about this. I went to school with some slacker-genius types that had bizarre resumes. Numbers are most of the outcome.

Honestly, update the LORs, PS, and Resume, and try again. You're going to have to do some of that anyway if you want to apply for jobs. You're needlessly attracted to Bama because they do well in USNews relative to their peer schools, but they're still just a decent state flagship in a place you have no ties, and nothing more. It's not THAT unusual to get admitted to a school that rejected you earlier. People gain maturity and polish themselves up at different rates...

[ms9]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

I don't think there is a single glaring problem like a "don't admit this person" LOR. I think it's a bunch of little things:
- C&F-wise, there is nothing that would cause problems with getting admitted to the bar. But I was told my long string of minor traffic violations calls my judgment into question, and there's also the issue of having left my MA program for 3 years
- worse MA GPA than uGPA
(i didn't get an MA in order to get into law school, obviously, but it kind of sucks that I'm probably worse off for having done so.)
- old LORs
- resume with lot of employment gaps
- PS that makes law school sound like a fall-back option after other things didn't work out (which, to be fair, is kind of what it is)

At this point like I said earlier I feel like reapplying would be difficult because the schools have my old application on file. And if I got new LORs, I'm not sure who I'd ask at this point for the second one.

This makes sense. You're not a dedicated applicant and it shows so a T13 isn't going to waste money or time on you.

If even Spivey is saying that you might not do better reapplying; go to Alabama. But a majority of TLS isn't going to bless your choice, which is what it appears you want.

Stego, can I comment on this without calling out any of the issues. I was debriefed on them. Let me know!

Mike

[stego]

I get the sense that you're leaving some big detail out of this story. The only plausible explanation for these results, assuming you're being candid about the absence of any serious C&F issues, is a really terrible letter of recommendation, as in "don't admit this person." Is there any reason you might have such a LOR in your file?

Yeah, I feel like simply having a lousy PS isn't enough to drive the results here. Like I said earlier, there has to be something glaringly negative if you've underperformed repeatedly.

I don't think there is a single glaring problem like a "don't admit this person" LOR. I think it's a bunch of little things:
- C&F-wise, there is nothing that would cause problems with getting admitted to the bar. But I was told my long string of minor traffic violations calls my judgment into question, and there's also the issue of having left my MA program for 3 years
- worse MA GPA than uGPA
(i didn't get an MA in order to get into law school, obviously, but it kind of sucks that I'm probably worse off for having done so.)
- old LORs
- resume with lot of employment gaps
- PS that makes law school sound like a fall-back option after other things didn't work out (which, to be fair, is kind of what it is)

At this point like I said earlier I feel like reapplying would be difficult because the schools have my old application on file. And if I got new LORs, I'm not sure who I'd ask at this point for the second one.

This makes sense. You're not a dedicated applicant and it shows so a T13 isn't going to waste money or time on you.

If even Spivey is saying that you might not do better reapplying; go to Alabama. But a majority of TLS isn't going to bless your choice, which is what it appears you want.

Stego, can I comment on this without calling out any of the issues. I was debriefed on them. Right now you are getting input from precisely zero people who know the issues. Let me know!

Mike

Please, go ahead

[ms9]

My understanding is that there was a deep trend of red flags for law schools presented across many different platforms in the application, over time, and punctuated in the application by a substantial strategic misstep. I would describe this final strategic misstep as Brad Pitt going to a singles bar and announcing to everyone he isn't really interested in them at all and seeing how the night goes for him. It would seem that my partners assessment of these missteps was close to how many law schools took it, that the red flags outweighed the numerical attractiveness.

My macro level admissions advice, independent of this particular case, is very similar to what I mentioned in our recent blog about multiple LSAT scores. Schools face mounting pressure as the summer progresses due to the fact they are losing their best seat deposits, so someone with high numbers may look stronger as the summer progresses. But reapplying doesn't do that for you.

My pont is that it is more systemic and over longer period of time than I think might be evident here,

All of this said, Stego I believe has a feel for all of this better than just about anyone now, at least as far as the admission missteps. The outcomes side of things post law school we didn't address.

is that fair, Stego?

[stego]

My understanding is that there was a deep trend of red flags for law schools presented across many different platforms in the application, over time, and punctuated in the application by a substantial strategic misstep. I would describe this final strategic misstep as Brad Pitt going to a singles bar and announcing to everyone he isn't really interested in them at all and seeing how the night goes for him. It would seem that my partners assessment of these missteps was close to how many law schools took it, that the red flags outweighed the numerical attractiveness.

My macro level admissions advice, independent of this particular case, is very similar to what I mentioned in our recent blog about multiple LSAT scores. Schools face mounting pressure as the summer progresses due to the fact they are losing their best seat deposits, so someone with high numbers may look stronger as the summer progresses. But reapplying doesn't do that for you.

My pont is that it is more systemic and over longer period of time than I think might be evident here,

All of this said, Stego I believe has a feel for all of this better than just about anyone now, at least as far as the admission missteps. The outcomes side of things post law school we didn't address.

is that fair, Stego?

I think so. I'm a bit confused as to which part was the substantial strategic misstep but I guess it's cool that I'm brad Pitt in this analogy.

[chargers21]

I'm guessing it was blatantly saying that law school is your back up in your PS

[Npret]

I'm wondering if it's possible to rectify these errors by a well crafted LOCI. They did waitlist him.

Also, I think OP has to be looking at the outcomes from Alabama even though Spivey's group didn't address it as they were just looking at admissions.

[stego]

I'm guessing it was blatantly saying that law school is your back up in your PS

That is the sense I'm getting, not that I said it exactly like that. But damn, my list of reasons why I want to go to LS = maybe he's not that serious about going?

[Npret]

I'm guessing it was blatantly saying that law school is your back up in your PS

That is the sense I'm getting, not that I said it exactly like that. But damn, my list of reasons why I want to go to LS = maybe he's not that serious about going?

There are other indications that you aren't serious though. Even in this thread you mentioned losing interest in a school for waitlisting you and other things that made it seem like you aren't committed. I mean it sounds like you only applied to Alabama for an iTunes card.

But all that is water under the bridge, the immediate questions are can you do anything to get off a waitlist this summer and can Alabama get you a job you want.

[stego]

I'm guessing it was blatantly saying that law school is your back up in your PS

That is the sense I'm getting, not that I said it exactly like that. But damn, my list of reasons why I want to go to LS = maybe he's not that serious about going?

There are other indications that you aren't serious though. Even in this thread you mentioned losing interest in a school for waitlisting you and other things that made it seem like you aren't committed. I mean it sounds like you only applied to Alabama for an iTunes card.

But all that is water under the bridge, the immediate questions are can you do anything to get off a waitlist this summer and can Alabama get you a job you want.

I mean, if somebody acts like they don't really want you, it's a turn off. If they act like they do want you there, it's appealing. Or maybe that's just me. And the other thing about being waitlisted, it means there's probably not going to be any scholarship money, so that's pretty unappealing too.
And as for the iTunes thing, I applied to 9 other schools that year. So it wasn't like a total lark. So, undecided about school X =/= not serious about going to law school.

I agree more or less with your last comment.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm guessing it was blatantly saying that law school is your back up in your PS

That is the sense I'm getting, not that I said it exactly like that. But damn, my list of reasons why I want to go to LS = maybe he's not that serious about going?

There are other indications that you aren't serious though. Even in this thread you mentioned losing interest in a school for waitlisting you and other things that made it seem like you aren't committed. I mean it sounds like you only applied to Alabama for an iTunes card.

But all that is water under the bridge, the immediate questions are can you do anything to get off a waitlist this summer and can Alabama get you a job you want.

I mean, if somebody acts like they don't really want you, it's a turn off. If they act like they do want you there, it's appealing. Or maybe that's just me. And the other thing about being waitlisted, it means there's probably not going to be any scholarship money, so that's pretty unappealing too.
And as for the iTunes thing, I applied to 9 other schools that year. So it wasn't like a total lark. So, undecided about school X =/= not serious about going to law school.

I agree more or less with your last comment.

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

[stego]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

Dude I feel like this attitude is probably what came out in your application and didn't help you. None of this is personal.

[Npret]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

Dude I feel like this attitude is probably what came out in your application and didn't help you. None of this is personal.

I feel like it difficult to explain to you OP what the problems are with your attitude because I don't think you see it the way an adcomm might.
It's like everyone else acts really, really super excited to go to a law school and in comparison you might appear extremely disinterested even if you're not a all disinterested.
You may just not be able to parse the difference and I'm not sure how best to explain or more importantly, if it even matters.

[41262]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

Dude I feel like this attitude is probably what came out in your application and didn't help you. None of this is personal.

The more this thread progresses, the clearer the cause of OP's underperformance becomes...

[grades??]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

Dude I feel like this attitude is probably what came out in your application and didn't help you. None of this is personal.

The more this thread progresses, the clearer the cause of OP's underperformance becomes...

100% agree

[stego]

I think the point is that this is applying to law school, not dating, and so a waitlist isn't some kind of personal thing. I get deciding not to stay on a waitlist (especially for the money reason) but that's not a reason not to reapply to them again in the next cycle.

Please apologize on my behalf to your colleagues in the BU admissions office for not reapplying there after last cycle
I reapplied to every other school that waitlisted me last year, plus added a couple new ones.

I didn't reapply to Georgetown, and I don't feel the least bit bad about that.

Dude I feel like this attitude is probably what came out in your application and didn't help you. None of this is personal.

The more this thread progresses, the clearer the cause of OP's underperformance becomes...

100% agree

Well you two don't need to be dicks about it.

@Nony I understand it's not personal, but it *feels* personal. It has a big impact on my life, and I feel like I'm getting criticized ITT for not wanting to apply or reapply to certain schools (even though I reapplied to all but two of the schools I applied to from last year.

Ultimately I take the responsibility for the execution but unfortunately TLS posters last year (who tbf didn't have all the facts) led me to believe I could have a much better outcome if I reapplied with basically the same application.

That unfortunately is not the case. Maybe things would be different if I'd reapplied in November but IDK.

[stego]

That said moving forward I've got to figure out what to do about all these waitlists. How to write a LOCI if it will help. Part of me just wants to not touch the situation at all because I can't envision going to one of these schools at sticker or close to it. It makes me anxious to think about.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I really don't mean to pile on, but just so it's clear - it's fine to decide not to reapply to a given school because you decide it's not right for your goals. No one is criticizing that. People are criticizing the idea that "I didn't reapply to BU because they upset me when they waitlisted me." Those are two completely different things. Maybe you also had other reasons for not reapplying, but everyone's just going off what you said here.