Chicago Kent vs DePaul Forum

[cron1834]

His advice is ban-worthy.

[Johann]

actually, if you look at the loan thread on here, a decent amount of people in biglaw (who you presumably think are smart) are also on PAYE. PAYE seems to be the majority of law school grads debt repayment method. but you guys as law school students wouldnt actually understand the research behind the finance analysis because you arent making any debt payments yet. again, once you understand the legal market as non law students, and debt payments as non law students, you might be in a position to be taken seriously in these threads. but yall are clueless right now. little baby fawns halfway out the birth canal right now sharing your "wisdom" about the sahara and running from lions (none of which youve done).

i went to a TTT school; have been practicing since before you even THOUGHT about law school or took an lsat; know hundreds of grads from both of these schools; am intimiately familiar with the chicago legal market; and am well versed with the debt repayment programs and consider it a hobby enough to bounce ideas/run excels with my buddy who is a financial analyst. but go ahead, lets hear your credentials to spew this (you took con law and read some LST reports?).

[cavalier1138]

Please stop. I get that you think you're a fucking genius because you got a job despite making bad decisions. Stop trying to fuck other people over.

[Johann]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

anyways, to get back on track.

OP - why do you want to be a lawyer? what are your alternative career options? what type of law do you want to do? are you from the chicagoland area and trying to practice here?

[cron1834]

I'm not disputing that PAYE exists, you TTT moron. I'm disputing that "lol, just plan on loan forgiveness" is any kind of reasonable strategy.

Also, I'm 99% confident that I'm older than you. I've taken out loans for school and switched careers a couple different times now. So save your old man tirade for someone else and have fun with your excel sheets. Your advice is wrong and dumb.

[cavalier1138]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

Who cares about data when you have anecdotes? Not this guy!

There are plenty of practicing lawyers on this forum who think that your advice ranges from irresponsible to flat-out unethical. The age/experience of people calling you out is irrelevant when you're spewing crap.

[Johann]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

Who cares about data when you have anecdotes? Not this guy!

There are plenty of practicing lawyers on this forum who think that your advice ranges from irresponsible to flat-out unethical. The age/experience of people calling you out is irrelevant when you're spewing crap.

the data confirms what i tell people. the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study). OP will likely get a job in shitlaw making 45k after graduation. at worst, he falls back on a doc review job making $25/hr with inconsistent hours and no benefits (about 50k per year). they are always hiring in the big cities.

[Plurple_Unicorn]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

anyways, to get back on track.

OP - why do you want to be a lawyer? what are your alternative career options? what type of law do you want to do? are you from the chicagoland area and trying to practice here?

Hi Johann. Thanks for the advice. I'm interested in the intersection of law and policy. Particularly in the fields of business/transportation (maritime, aviation, etc). I currently work for a v20 firm in a staff position. I've seen the ins and outs of working at biglaw, so I'm aware it's not all that it's cracked out to be. Realistically, I would be much happier in a mid-sized firm or government work (if I can get over the red tape). I have experience in PI as well, and am aware of what the work is like (at both state and federal levels). I would absolutely love to stay in the Chicago market post graduation. I know it's a tough market, but I currently live in a comparable city on one of the coasts. As for your post about PAYE, I'm aware of the risks and benefits involved. I have some finance background, and can assure you that I've done my homework about every payment plan there is. Anyway, I'm still stuck between the two schools, but also realize my job prospects are virtually the same. At this point, does national ranking matter? My understanding is that both are viewed similarly in the Chicago market. Thanks again for the input.

[Johann]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

anyways, to get back on track.

OP - why do you want to be a lawyer? what are your alternative career options? what type of law do you want to do? are you from the chicagoland area and trying to practice here?

Hi Johann. Thanks for the advice. I'm interested in the intersection of law and policy. Particularly in the fields of business/transportation (maritime, aviation, etc). I currently work for a v20 firm in a staff position. I've seen the ins and outs of working at biglaw, so I'm aware it's not all that it's cracked out to be. Realistically, I would be much happier in a mid-sized firm or government work (if I can get over the red tape). I have experience in PI as well, and am aware of what the work is like (at both state and federal levels). I would absolutely love to stay in the Chicago market post graduation. I know it's a tough market, but I currently live in a comparable city on one of the coasts. As for your post about PAYE, I'm aware of the risks and benefits involved. I have some finance background, and can assure you that I've done my homework about every payment plan there is. Anyway, I'm still stuck between the two schools, but also realize my job prospects are virtually the same. At this point, does national ranking matter? My understanding is that both are viewed similarly in the Chicago market. Thanks again for the input.

National ranking does not matter at all between these schools. Your interests are very narrow and niche, which is somewhat concerning imo. There just aren't many jobs in these fields for anyone (not even T14 grads with PhDs and backgrounds in what you're talking about). DePaul's reputation is sliding more than Kent's, so I think Kent has a slight edge, but that's basically if you made me prioritize one of them. They are peers for the most part. Firm work is serving clients, and there really isnt any client interested in the intersection fo policy and law. they are interested in getting money for being wronged. there might be some govt jobs in DC and think tanks that do what you seem to be describing, but again that's rare. I do know someone with a TTT that worked in Springfield in a policy/legal role for the state government, but that had a much broader application of all state regulations rather than a niche focused on maritime and aviation law. i also know a TTT grad who got an llm in maritime law and works for a government harbor association, but again that job doesnt seem focused at all on the policy of maritime law or anything of the like, its more just an in house project mgmt role for people that deal with boats. the policy part of your goals is really tricky for me.
if you arent interested in public defender work, personal injury litigation (plaintiff and defense), family law (divorces and child custody), general estate planning, real estate work/deals, govt work (helping judges/bigger orgs move everything along), or jd advantage roles (compliance for big banks), not sure law school will do anything to move you closer to your goals.

[Npret]

It's much easier to be top 10% in DePaul than 20% in Iowa for example.

At least you're consistently dumb so people know to ignore you.
Stop projecting your unwise decisions.

you dont think its easier to get top 10% against dumber classmates? theres nothing debatable about that statement. its absolutely true.

Wow.

[cavalier1138]

the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study).

So the median outcome for the 50% of John Marshall graduates who actually become is $100k after 10 years. Stellar sample size and reasoning there. The fact that it ignores all the people who never become lawyers isn't problematic at all.

OP: your goals are not achievable from these schools, and frankly, they're going to be difficult to achieve from any school, to the extent that jobs at the "intersection of law and policy" exist at all. But taking on $200k of debt when it will literally be impossible to get what you want is a bad idea.

[Johann]

the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study).

So the median outcome for the 50% of John Marshall graduates who actually become is $100k after 10 years. Stellar sample size and reasoning there. The fact that it ignores all the people who never become lawyers isn't problematic at all.

OP: your goals are not achievable from these schools, and frankly, they're going to be difficult to achieve from any school, to the extent that jobs at the "intersection of law and policy" exist at all. But taking on $200k of debt when it will literally be impossible to get what you want is a bad idea.

The figure includes all graduates whether they take/pass the bar. The median outcome of a John Marshall grad based on a sample size in the hundreds

[cavalier1138]

the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study).

So the median outcome for the 50% of John Marshall graduates who actually become is $100k after 10 years. Stellar sample size and reasoning there. The fact that it ignores all the people who never become lawyers isn't problematic at all.

OP: your goals are not achievable from these schools, and frankly, they're going to be difficult to achieve from any school, to the extent that jobs at the "intersection of law and policy" exist at all. But taking on $200k of debt when it will literally be impossible to get what you want is a bad idea.

The figure includes all graduates whether they take/pass the bar. The median outcome of a John Marshall grad based on a sample size in the hundreds

Since the After the JD study (and the follow-up studies) only surveyed lawyers who passed the bar in 2000, that's simply incorrect. And since I've searched all three studies for anything specific about John Marshall graduates without turning up this data you're referring to, I'm going to guess that you're... wait for it... making shit up. What a surprise.

Maybe we can just contain all the bad advice for the rest of this cycle in this thread. It'll be like a quarantine.

[Johann]

the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study).

So the median outcome for the 50% of John Marshall graduates who actually become is $100k after 10 years. Stellar sample size and reasoning there. The fact that it ignores all the people who never become lawyers isn't problematic at all.

OP: your goals are not achievable from these schools, and frankly, they're going to be difficult to achieve from any school, to the extent that jobs at the "intersection of law and policy" exist at all. But taking on $200k of debt when it will literally be impossible to get what you want is a bad idea.

The figure includes all graduates whether they take/pass the bar. The median outcome of a John Marshall grad based on a sample size in the hundreds

Since the After the JD study (and the follow-up studies) only surveyed lawyers who passed the bar in 2000, that's simply incorrect. And since I've searched all three studies for anything specific about John Marshall graduates without turning up this data you're referring to, I'm going to guess that you're... wait for it... making shit up. What a surprise.

Maybe we can just contain all the bad advice for the rest of this cycle in this thread. It'll be like a quarantine.

Fair enough on the bar piece. I'm doing work and not looking at the study right now (thigh I have in the past). They break salary down by school ranking. John Marshall is an illustration/representation for sub100 ranked law schools, which have 100k median salary after 10 years for sub100 grads who pass the bar.

[cron1834]

the median outcome for a lawyer who graduates from John Marshall, 10 years after law school, is making $100k (based on the After the JD study).

So the median outcome for the 50% of John Marshall graduates who actually become is $100k after 10 years. Stellar sample size and reasoning there. The fact that it ignores all the people who never become lawyers isn't problematic at all.

OP: your goals are not achievable from these schools, and frankly, they're going to be difficult to achieve from any school, to the extent that jobs at the "intersection of law and policy" exist at all. But taking on $200k of debt when it will literally be impossible to get what you want is a bad idea.

The figure includes all graduates whether they take/pass the bar. The median outcome of a John Marshall grad based on a sample size in the hundreds

Since the After the JD study (and the follow-up studies) only surveyed lawyers who passed the bar in 2000, that's simply incorrect. And since I've searched all three studies for anything specific about John Marshall graduates without turning up this data you're referring to, I'm going to guess that you're... wait for it... making shit up. What a surprise.

Maybe we can just contain all the bad advice for the rest of this cycle in this thread. It'll be like a quarantine.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The whole point of median, of course, is that half the people in the study are at or below it. So I'm not sure how much comfort that number provides.

Also, there are a lot of biglaw people on PAYE, but I think if asked, almost all of them would say it would have been better not to take out the debt in the first place.

(Having said that, I do think Johann is pretty realistic about the kinds of jobs available to people when they graduate, even if I think he's too optimistic about salary down the road.)

[Pomeranian]

Avoid at all costs.

[cavalier1138]

Since I was a little bored, I actually decided to find the specific table referred to. The tables from the third iteration of the study aren't available, but the second study (done around year 7) seems to have the numbers Johann was referring to.

The trouble isn't just that the report only targets median salaries for people who actually became lawyers. The salary numbers are also divided by GPA. So for T3 graduates, the median salary of ~$100k is only valid for students who graduated with a 3.25+ GPA. For T4 students, the threshold was a 3.5+ GPA. Most T3-T4 schools set their curve to a 2.0, so a B+ average means at least the top third (probably higher). Also, it's not clear where John Marshall would fit on this survey, since the T4 designation applies to schools in the 138-178 range of USNWR, and John Marshall is unranked in that study. On the other hand, USNWR cuts off in the 140s, so perhaps the study lumped in unranked schools. And in total fairness, I can't find the rankings from 2003, which is what this study used as their base, so it's entirely possible that the rankings went up to 178 at that time.

Unsurprisingly, students with the top GPAs at all schools had the highest median salaries, with one exception: students at the very top of their T10 (weird line in the sand for the study) class actually have a lower median salary than top students at schools in the top 50 and than students with lower grades in the T10. So it seems to support the idea that students at the very top of the class at the most "elite" schools ultimately end up leaving biglaw (the first round of the study had that block at the highest salary median) for government/PI/academia/etc.

But no matter how you slice it, it's a stretch to even say that the half of John Marshall's class who are able to become lawyers can expect a median income of $100k within 10 years of graduation. There's literally no data on John Marshall, but even being generous to the school and classifying in the "T4" bracket shows a bleaker salary outlook for students who couldn't crack a 3.5 (median salaries around $68-80k).

[chicagoburger]

and the hundreds of grads from these schools i know? what about them?

anyways, to get back on track.

OP - why do you want to be a lawyer? what are your alternative career options? what type of law do you want to do? are you from the chicagoland area and trying to practice here?

Hi Johann. Thanks for the advice. I'm interested in the intersection of law and policy. Particularly in the fields of business/transportation (maritime, aviation, etc). I currently work for a v20 firm in a staff position. I've seen the ins and outs of working at biglaw, so I'm aware it's not all that it's cracked out to be. Realistically, I would be much happier in a mid-sized firm or government work (if I can get over the red tape). I have experience in PI as well, and am aware of what the work is like (at both state and federal levels). I would absolutely love to stay in the Chicago market post graduation. I know it's a tough market, but I currently live in a comparable city on one of the coasts. As for your post about PAYE, I'm aware of the risks and benefits involved. I have some finance background, and can assure you that I've done my homework about every payment plan there is. Anyway, I'm still stuck between the two schools, but also realize my job prospects are virtually the same. At this point, does national ranking matter? My understanding is that both are viewed similarly in the Chicago market. Thanks again for the input.

If you are really interested in transportation(aviation etc), DePaul could be your better choice. They have a center for Aviation and a specialized program for it.

As of Biglaw, I still want to emphasize that these two schools virtually pump out the same if not more grads to that field as many T20 schools.
T14 is obviously a better choice. But outside T14, it's really a fair game for all.

[cavalier1138]

If you are really interested in transportation(aviation etc), DePaul could be your better choice. They have a center for Aviation and a specialized program for it.

As of Biglaw, I still want to emphasize that these two schools virtually pump out the same if not more grads to that field as many T20 schools.
T14 is obviously a better choice. But outside T14, it's really a fair game for all.

Do you get off on trying to actually ruin people's career prospects? I'm genuinely curious.

[chicagoburger]

If you are really interested in transportation(aviation etc), DePaul could be your better choice. They have a center for Aviation and a specialized program for it.

As of Biglaw, I still want to emphasize that these two schools virtually pump out the same if not more grads to that field as many T20 schools.
T14 is obviously a better choice. But outside T14, it's really a fair game for all.

Do you get off on trying to actually ruin people's career prospects? I'm genuinely curious.

I am binge watching "The Good Wife" and "Suits". T14 kids are being outperformed by TTTs

[guynourmin]

If you are really interested in transportation(aviation etc), DePaul could be your better choice. They have a center for Aviation and a specialized program for it.

As of Biglaw, I still want to emphasize that these two schools virtually pump out the same if not more grads to that field as many T20 schools.
T14 is obviously a better choice. But outside T14, it's really a fair game for all.

Do you get off on trying to actually ruin people's career prospects? I'm genuinely curious.

I am binge watching "The Good Wife" and "Suits". T14 kids are being outperformed by TTTs

Two of my favorite documentaries. Oh, wait...

[A. Nony Mouse]

As of Biglaw, I still want to emphasize that these two schools virtually pump out the same if not more grads to that field as many T20 schools.
T14 is obviously a better choice. But outside T14, it's really a fair game for all.

Stop. You don't know what you're talking about and you're spreading misinformation.

percentage of DePaul grads who end up in biglaw (defining generously as firms with 100+ attorneys): 6.3
percentage of Kent grads who end up in biglaw: 10.4

percentage of UCLA grads who end up in biglaw: 40.2
percentage of WUSTL grads who end up in biglaw: 43.2
percentage of UT grads who end up in biglaw: 35.9

I don't care about numbers of students in the class or raw numbers of students who go to biglaw from each of these places; you are competing within your class. If you're at a school of 500 people, 10% is 50; if you're at a school of 100 people, 10% is 10; you're not in a better position at the larger school just because the top 10% is a larger number, because you're completing with a larger number of people. At the large school you have to outscore 450 people, not 90.

(You also can't combine DePaul/Kent's outcomes because you can't attend both schools at once.)

Seriously, if you keep spreading this nonsense you're going to be banned from posting here.

[Johann]

Since I was a little bored, I actually decided to find the specific table referred to. The tables from the third iteration of the study aren't available, but the second study (done around year 7) seems to have the numbers Johann was referring to.

The trouble isn't just that the report only targets median salaries for people who actually became lawyers. The salary numbers are also divided by GPA. So for T3 graduates, the median salary of ~$100k is only valid for students who graduated with a 3.25+ GPA. For T4 students, the threshold was a 3.5+ GPA. Most T3-T4 schools set their curve to a 2.0, so a B+ average means at least the top third (probably higher). Also, it's not clear where John Marshall would fit on this survey, since the T4 designation applies to schools in the 138-178 range of USNWR, and John Marshall is unranked in that study. On the other hand, USNWR cuts off in the 140s, so perhaps the study lumped in unranked schools. And in total fairness, I can't find the rankings from 2003, which is what this study used as their base, so it's entirely possible that the rankings went up to 178 at that time.

Unsurprisingly, students with the top GPAs at all schools had the highest median salaries, with one exception: students at the very top of their T10 (weird line in the sand for the study) class actually have a lower median salary than top students at schools in the top 50 and than students with lower grades in the T10. So it seems to support the idea that students at the very top of the class at the most "elite" schools ultimately end up leaving biglaw (the first round of the study had that block at the highest salary median) for government/PI/academia/etc.

But no matter how you slice it, it's a stretch to even say that the half of John Marshall's class who are able to become lawyers can expect a median income of $100k within 10 years of graduation. There's literally no data on John Marshall, but even being generous to the school and classifying in the "T4" bracket shows a bleaker salary outlook for students who couldn't crack a 3.5 (median salaries around $68-80k).

You need to look at the third iteration of the study after year 10 which is where my data comes from. Download the excel data file. Median for all schools ranked lower than 100 of the sample (so bar passers) is 100k after 10 years.

[Johann]

But also median salary of 68k (x2 for couple) still puts you at more than 2.5x the median household American income. I never claimed these schools were get rich quick schemes. Just that they are VERY GOOD outcomes for the types of students that typically attend them and give them a great chance at upper middle class lifestyles, which is exactly what you've admitted with the above.