Columbia/NYU/UVA Full Price or UCLA/USC $$??? Forum

[cron1834]

Yeah I have very very similar to your numbers, applied earlier and had a much better cycle both financially and in terms of acceptances. I would strongly advise reapplying early and maybe considering working with a consultant to figure out where maybe some things in your application could be improved.

ETA: hadn't read the whole thread, the fact that you didn't get in or get $ with Duke or Michigan with your work experience and numbers again emphasizes to me that you should reapply. Feel free to PM for details, but with those numbers (close to exactly) I was only straight rejected at SY two years in a row, and either acceptances (often w $) or WL to most of the rest of the T15 (if that's what we're calling it). Definitely not trying to brag, I just really think being thoughtful about a reapplication even if LSAT retake isn't for you could dramatically improve your debt load and ability to do what you want to do

This sounds right, OP. And if you're sitting out and reapplying (and you really should), then you might as well study/retake.

[heyduchess]

Wait, wait... Why are people saying you can't get Big Law with USC or UCLA?

Look at some of the top (Vault-ranked) Big Law firms in LA. A lot of them have UCLA-alum partners.

Look at the hiring stats from these Big Law firms. Most of them pull from Berkeley, Harvard, Stanford (obvi)... and then UCLA/USC.

UCLA is a young school with a stock on the up-and-up.

[UVA2B]

Wait, wait... Why are people saying you can't get Big Law with USC or UCLA?

Look at some of the top (Vault-ranked) Big Law firms in LA. A lot of them have UCLA-alum partners.

Look at the hiring stats from these Big Law firms. Most of them pull from Berkeley, Harvard, Stanford (obvi)... and then UCLA/USC.

UCLA is a young school with a stock on the up-and-up.

Month old necro. Not the most egregious I've ever seen, but still unnecessary.

It's not that you can't get Biglaw from UCLA/USC. It's that if you go into UCLA/USC expecting to get Biglaw, it's still somewhat risky. ~50% of the class will be in a position to get Biglaw. So with the nature of the forced curve and the likelihood a student will end up around the median GPA, they are effectively at a coin flip chance of nailing down Biglaw.

And there is no "stock on the up-and-up" nonsense. UCLA is exactly what it has always been: a strong regional in a major legal market. It will continue to place primarily in that market with somewhat limited reach elsewhere. It will do so more or less coinciding with the health of the legal market. It's status in the legal profession isn't under question, but it's also not ascending to anything more than what it currently is.

[Hi-So - ArshavinFan]

Would really appreciate any advice on this. Currently on a few waitlists and having a tough time deciding what the number one option here is. Just want to be prepared when I hear back.

Columbia - full price (currently waitlisted)
NYU - full price (currently waitlisted)
UVA - full price (currently waitlisted)
UCLA - half scholarship
USC - half scholarship

LSAT: 168 (taken the LSAT a couple of times, got a 168 on the past attempt, don't think retaking at this point and reapplying will be helpful)
GPA: 3.67

Will mostly be financing COA with loans and be paying for an apartment in either city
From the Midwest but been living in NYC for the past few years working at a biotech/pharma company with a nice support group of friends here
Would like to practice in NYC for a few years but also open to the West Coast or possibly working abroad eventually
Would like to work in big law for a few years in order to pay off the loans and then ideally go in house somewhere
Not entirely sure which area of law I'd like to focus on yet. Interested in corporate/finance/tech/biotech/sports

Might be interested in combining it with an MBA or transitioning over to the business side way down the road too... Semi-considering just doing an MBA if the opportunity cost on law school doesn't seem entirely worth it...

Any of these options seem like a no brainer? Is it worth paying for the big name (assuming I'd get off the waitlist)? Thanks in advance!

Here's my two cents - I'm a fmr mgmt consultant at one of the big3, now data/financial analyst (I kinda sorta get where you're coming from). I got into NYU off wait-list and decided to go myself this fall.
If you want to practice in NYC ( particularly BL), USC and UCLA are unfortunately, not ideal. While Columbia and NYU would be.

I know people in this thread have been advocating for Fordham - but imo thats just silliness. This site in my opinion highlight why i think that. - http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best ... glaw-jobs/ .

Im not saying that Fordham isnt a decent school (it is) - i just think that even if they gave you a full ride, it wouldn't be worth it unless you were a bonifide superstar, and i dont think those are good odds - at least not for me.

Here's the thing - the JD/MBA doesnt really have a clear purpose, and from what i gleaned from talking to other lawyers - there no legal job that requires this degree. Where i work, i was encouraged by my coworkers to go for a JD/MBA, but in the end - it really doesn't make sense. It's ok to have doubt about law school v business school (not everybody is 100% confident in the decisions they make, and I dont think that's a bad thing). What you should have is the focus to commit to one of the two once you start, and for that you need perspective. I think you should talk to some people who you think fit your desired career path (I contacted random people on linkedin who are alumni of my school - id say every 5/10 responded). That will give you the perspective you need. Talking to people on a in internet forum who likely dont have your background or understand your current career path is not the best place to gain the detailed answers youre truly looking for.

Ideally I say - reapply if you can handle the stress and pressure of doing so, and if you dont have any family or any serious situations where your reapplication wouldnt be 150% better than your original. If you cannot and are ok with lesser odds to the East Coast - pick the better of USC/UCLA

Im not gonna advise you for a retake - you stated yourself that you've taken multiple times and there is SERIOUS survivorship bias on this site regarding retaking and how simplistic it is to do.

As for the no school in t13 is worth sticker/most schools in the t13 aren't worth sticker argument - Sticker at NYU or Columbia is gonna be a right pain. Columbia at sticker for Tuition and COL is 3701 for a 10 year monthly payment or 2397 for a 20yr payment.
NOT A JOKE. AT ALL! And god forbid thats without a recession or ever minor economic downturn. That being said, 49.4% of students at Columbia do it and almost 60% of NYU kids do. And trust me, they're not idiot, and im sure a majority of them have read this website before. Yeah, i'd say about 20-50% of them probably have parents who can help, but the rest of them dont. and many of them make it out alive and successful. But you have to be willing to sacrifice on a lot. Luckily im getting some need based aid so i wont be paying sticker, but im still paying what most on this site would be an extremely high amount. And thats okay for me. But I also know for sure i DONT want an MBA, and i hate the culture of students in business school tbh, and i also have no undergrad debt at all, and wont owe anything else. Plus you add the fact that after living in a group home/foster care and being homeless while in college, i think i can handle inconvenience.

Long story short - Read all the responses heere, then ask more people who feel you would want to emulate about their experience, and then ask yourself whether you're ready. If you are, youll know.

Good Luck!

Edit - saw that this is old - but i still think my advice is useful, i guess i leave it on there.

[gbullock19]

I think this depends on where you want to live. I don't think you should choose USC. I'm originally from Los Angeles and the respect that UCLA garners is above and beyond USC. What kind of law do you want to practice? If it's entertainment or IP I say go with California due to Silicon Valley in northern cali and Hollywood in LA.

***FYI, just know the CA bar is miserable. My cousin failed it twice before finally passing the 3rd time. He went to USC but now lives in another state working document review (he hasn't passed that state's bar yet).

[cavalier1138]

I think this depends on where you want to live. I don't think you should choose USC. I'm originally from Los Angeles and the respect that UCLA garners is above and beyond USC. What kind of law do you want to practice? If it's entertainment or IP I say go with California due to Silicon Valley in northern cali and Hollywood in LA.

***FYI, just know the CA bar is miserable. My cousin failed it twice before finally passing the 3rd time. He went to USC but now lives in another state working document review (he hasn't passed that state's bar yet).

Literally none of this (except the first sentence) has any relation to picking a law school.

[PrezRand]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

[UVA2B]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

Have you paid off six figures of debt? Can you speak with authority that paying off six figures of debt is not only manageable, but overblown how bad it is?

It's not that it's impossible to pay off six figures of debt. Occasionally it makes sense, and in theory it seems totally manageable when you're talking about six figure salaries, but there is a definite gap between the theoretical and the actual. Can someone with $300k of debt pay off that debt after going to NYU? Yeah, absolutely. Should a person wanting to go to LA definitively pick going to NYU at sticker over going to UCLA on a scholarship? Maybe, but it definitely trends toward not making sense depending on the individual's circumstances.

Anyway, this is still a necro that the OP is not taking advice about choosing a school anymore, so this is all pretty useless.

[PrezRand]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

Have you paid off six figures of debt? Can you speak with authority that paying off six figures of debt is not only manageable, but overblown how bad it is?

It's not that it's impossible to pay off six figures of debt. Occasionally it makes sense, and in theory it seems totally manageable when you're talking about six figure salaries, but there is a definite gap between the theoretical and the actual. Can someone with $300k of debt pay off that debt after going to NYU? Yeah, absolutely. Should a person wanting to go to LA definitively pick going to NYU at sticker over going to UCLA on a scholarship? Maybe, but it definitely trends toward not making sense depending on the individual's circumstances.

Anyway, this is still a necro that the OP is not taking advice about choosing a school anymore, so this is all pretty useless.

Not everyone has the same situation as you and TLS has a tendency to group all sticker decisions as being the same.

[existentialcrisis]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

Have you paid off six figures of debt? Can you speak with authority that paying off six figures of debt is not only manageable, but overblown how bad it is?

It's not that it's impossible to pay off six figures of debt. Occasionally it makes sense, and in theory it seems totally manageable when you're talking about six figure salaries, but there is a definite gap between the theoretical and the actual. Can someone with $300k of debt pay off that debt after going to NYU? Yeah, absolutely. Should a person wanting to go to LA definitively pick going to NYU at sticker over going to UCLA on a scholarship? Maybe, but it definitely trends toward not making sense depending on the individual's circumstances.

Anyway, this is still a necro that the OP is not taking advice about choosing a school anymore, so this is all pretty useless.

Not everyone has the same situation as you and TLS has a tendency to group all sticker decisions as being the same.

How are they ever different unless someone has means other than loans to pay for it?

Sticker debt at a T14 is rapidly approaching and at many schools has exceeded 300k at repayment. That's 2.5k a month for 10 years.

[PrezRand]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

Have you paid off six figures of debt? Can you speak with authority that paying off six figures of debt is not only manageable, but overblown how bad it is?

It's not that it's impossible to pay off six figures of debt. Occasionally it makes sense, and in theory it seems totally manageable when you're talking about six figure salaries, but there is a definite gap between the theoretical and the actual. Can someone with $300k of debt pay off that debt after going to NYU? Yeah, absolutely. Should a person wanting to go to LA definitively pick going to NYU at sticker over going to UCLA on a scholarship? Maybe, but it definitely trends toward not making sense depending on the individual's circumstances.

Anyway, this is still a necro that the OP is not taking advice about choosing a school anymore, so this is all pretty useless.

Not everyone has the same situation as you and TLS has a tendency to group all sticker decisions as being the same.

How are they ever different unless someone has means other than loans to pay for it?

Sticker debt at a T14 is rapidly approaching and at many schools has exceeded 300k at repayment. That's 2.5k a month for 10 years.

If you really want biglaw, the T14 is your only option in a lot of situations. Not everyone has the same job opportunities coming out of undergrad.

Plus, not everyone plans on paying their loans back over a 10 year period

[Alexandros]

.

[PrezRand]

I definitely think TLS over-exaggerates how bad sticker is for a TLS but in your case you should probably not go. If you are considering just doing an MBA, you probably haven't completely made up your mind on law yet. Maybe take some more time to decide?

Have you paid off six figures of debt? Can you speak with authority that paying off six figures of debt is not only manageable, but overblown how bad it is?

It's not that it's impossible to pay off six figures of debt. Occasionally it makes sense, and in theory it seems totally manageable when you're talking about six figure salaries, but there is a definite gap between the theoretical and the actual. Can someone with $300k of debt pay off that debt after going to NYU? Yeah, absolutely. Should a person wanting to go to LA definitively pick going to NYU at sticker over going to UCLA on a scholarship? Maybe, but it definitely trends toward not making sense depending on the individual's circumstances.

Anyway, this is still a necro that the OP is not taking advice about choosing a school anymore, so this is all pretty useless.

Not everyone has the same situation as you and TLS has a tendency to group all sticker decisions as being the same.

How are they ever different unless someone has means other than loans to pay for it?

Sticker debt at a T14 is rapidly approaching and at many schools has exceeded 300k at repayment. That's 2.5k a month for 10 years.

If you really want biglaw, the T14 is your only option in a lot of situations. Not everyone has the same job opportunities coming out of undergrad.

Plus, not everyone plans on paying their loans back over a 10 year period

300k debt for a soul-consuming job that you probably won't have long enough to pay off that debt. Sounds like a brilliant plan.

For some people, that might just be an option.


Leave it to TLS to decide every decision for potential law students. I'm not saying paying 300k for law school is the best plan. However, for some people it might be something they should consider. If you don't have the best stats and have to pay sticker in order to guarantee big-law, that is something you should seriously consider. Not everyone has the same job opportunities coming out of college. Some people don't want to be bartenders forever or have to wait 10+ years in order to save up and start a job where the average person is 5-8 years younger than you. You could even argue that people taking out loans for undergrad is a terrible idea and isn't a brilliant plan but most people do it anyway. Should you wait 5+ years to attend undergrad?

[slurp]

Leave it to TLS to decide every decision for potential law students. I'm not saying paying 300k for law school is the best plan. However, for some people it might be something they should consider. If you don't have the best stats and have to pay sticker in order to guarantee big-law, that is something you should seriously consider. Not everyone has the same job opportunities coming out of college. Some people don't want to be bartenders forever or have to wait 10+ years in order to save up and start a job where the average person is 5-8 years younger than you. You could even argue that people taking out loans for undergrad is a terrible idea and isn't a brilliant plan but most people do it anyway. Should you wait 5+ years to attend undergrad?

I get the opportunity cost argument, but your last point is not the most well thought out for obvious reasons, such as the typical cost of undergrad vs law school.

OP, I am a reapplicant who had options very similar to this and ended up choosing USC/UCLA on the half ride. I am more than happy living in LA/socal upon graduation tho and will still be taking out a significant amount of loans. I'm happy with my choice tho and do not think the higher chance of landing NYC biglaw is worth the extra ~$100k+interest to me. It's something you're gonna have to weigh out yourself. Talk to me in 3 years and I may have a different opinion

[guynourmin]

You could even argue that people taking out loans for undergrad is a terrible idea and isn't a brilliant plan but most people do it anyway

"most people do it" is rarely a good argument and this is no exception.

[NUDad]

Sticker debt at a T14 is rapidly approaching and at many schools has exceeded 300k at repayment. That's 2.5k a month for 10 years.

Actually, it's more like $3,200 per month on a 10-year repayment. That's a soul-crushing level of debt.