Harvard vs. Columbia ($) Forum

[jbagelboy]

*Checks in to see more people are now voting for Harvard at $200k debt over Columbia for $140k or reapplying for T13 for full ride
*Loses faith in the silent majority who refuse to actually give a good reason for their choice
*Realizes these really have to be 0Ls who don't consider this theoretical "debt" they're taking on compared to the realities of the legal market
*Feels a little bit better

*Will not be able to sleep tonight because worried about botching life altering decision

I understand why you think that, but its not life altering in the real sense of, "do I go to law school or not/a totally different professional school," or, "should we have kids," or, "should I take this plea bargain or risk prison by fighting this to the jury." You're talking about going to one Ivy league northeast law school or another Ivy league northeast law school for the same amount of time. The odds are you'll be in a very similar place, if not the exact same place, in 3 years regardless.

With one choice you'll spend a couple extra years making large monthly loan payments, so yes there's a quality of life decision, and its going to be three years near Boston or New York. But I fail to appreciate how this choice is 'life altering.' Deciding whether to go changes your life, yes, but as between your two choices here.. lets not be dramatic about this

[Npret]

*Checks in to see more people are now voting for Harvard at $200k debt over Columbia for $140k or reapplying for T13 for full ride
*Loses faith in the silent majority who refuse to actually give a good reason for their choice
*Realizes these really have to be 0Ls who don't consider this theoretical "debt" they're taking on compared to the realities of the legal market
*Feels a little bit better

*Will not be able to sleep tonight because worried about botching life altering decision

Omg. Grow up. You're choosing between two of the top law schools in the country with similar outcomes. The lack of "life altering" differences between these schools is what the thread is all about.

You're not trying to decide which trafficker to trust to get your family out of Syria.

[McMooch]

OP here. Let's see if we can steer this discussion by splitting into 2 questions.

Reapply vs. Enroll
Pros for Reapply:

• Possibility of full scholarship at lower T13s and more money at Columbia
  Money to pay tuition
  Able to work in law-related field to test my interest

Pros for Enrolling:

• Possibility of not even having my current options
  Trading in a year of higher pay for lower pay

Columbia vs. Harvard
Pros for Columbia:

• Cold Hard Cash
  Same biglaw outcomes

Pros for Harvard:

• Benefit in secondary markets
  Higher Clerking Numbers
  Brand

Goals are litigation, especially appellate litigation, in secondary market (TX, FL, etc.).

[McMooch]

*Checks in to see more people are now voting for Harvard at $200k debt over Columbia for $140k or reapplying for T13 for full ride
*Loses faith in the silent majority who refuse to actually give a good reason for their choice
*Realizes these really have to be 0Ls who don't consider this theoretical "debt" they're taking on compared to the realities of the legal market
*Feels a little bit better

*Will not be able to sleep tonight because worried about botching life altering decision

Omg. Grow up. You're choosing between two of the top law schools in the country with similar outcomes. The lack of "life altering" differences between these schools is what the thread is all about.

You're not trying to decide which trafficker to trust to get your family out of Syria.

Definitely a good perspective to think about. I'll keep it in mind tonight. All night.

[star fox]

OP here. Let's see if we can steer this discussion by splitting into 2 questions.

Reapply vs. Enroll
Pros for Reapply:

• Possibility of full scholarship at lower T13s and more money at Columbia
  Money to pay tuition
  Able to work in law-related field to test my interest

Pros for Enrolling:

• Possibility of not even having my current options
  Trading in a year of higher pay for lower pay

Columbia vs. Harvard
Pros for Columbia:

• Cold Hard Cash
  Same biglaw outcomes

Pros for Harvard:

• Benefit in secondary markets
  Higher Clerking Numbers
  Brand

Goals are litigation, especially appellate litigation, in secondary market (TX, FL, etc.).

Your options aren't going away. Taking a year longer to earn your high salary is fine. Enjoy your youth a little bit. You're not gonna look back when you're 60 and feel regret over waiting another year to collect a high salary. Particularly if it means going into debt. I really think your numbers are too good to waste on less than a full ride. Columbia at that price is fine and all and Harvard is Harvard I guess but you can do better.

[gilmoregirlrevival]

..

[cavalier1138]

At this point, With your high lsat and being younger, stats are you will do better in law school than all those older non kjd's.

Most of your post was complete nonsense. I just wanted to highlight this particular piece of unadulterated crap. Please look at this in a year or two and kick yourself.

[UVA2B]

OL voting Harvard for you .... for clerkship percentages and litigation interests and not wanting to be in NY long term, for campus amenities (nice library, nice gym, one nice building) versus just horrible campus, hard seats/ ugly library, for better grading system versus harsh curve, for more clinics and externships in the litigation area at H (DA Prosecution Clinic, USAO, AG, Supreme Ct Clinic) versus Bronx Defenders,Domestic Violence Prosecution and 10 student limit in USAO at C , brand name of H for Texas or Florida yah it is worth 60k more.
Of course if you had just stayed on the waitlist at UVA or other t13, you would have likely been offered a dillard or very close to full tuition with your stats and that would be the best option with slightly less percentages for clerkship than Harvard. Doesn't sound like you want to take a year off, but that is another issue... at H only like 20 percent are kjd.. they really discourage going straight through at H and most kjd defer a year. A lot more kjd's at t13's. Good luck with your decision. At this point, With your high lsat and being younger, stats are you will do better in law school than all those older non kjd's. I vote go straight through to Harvard.

This is 0L nonsense.

[VeiledProtectorate]

OL voting Harvard for you .... for clerkship percentages and litigation interests and not wanting to be in NY long term, for campus amenities (nice library, nice gym, one nice building) versus just horrible campus, hard seats/ ugly library, for better grading system versus harsh curve, for more clinics and externships in the litigation area at H (DA Prosecution Clinic, USAO, AG, Supreme Ct Clinic) versus Bronx Defenders,Domestic Violence Prosecution and 10 student limit in USAO at C , brand name of H for Texas or Florida yah it is worth 60k more.
Of course if you had just stayed on the waitlist at UVA or other t13, you would have likely been offered a dillard or very close to full tuition with your stats and that would be the best option with slightly less percentages for clerkship than Harvard. Doesn't sound like you want to take a year off, but that is another issue... at H only like 20 percent are kjd.. they really discourage going straight through at H and most kjd defer a year. A lot more kjd's at t13's. Good luck with your decision. At this point, With your high lsat and being younger, stats are you will do better in law school than all those older non kjd's. I vote go straight through to Harvard.

This has got to be a troll right? At least now I know there's an 0L dumber than me. Lol can't put a price on those library aesthetics and softer seats.

[rpupkin]

OL voting Harvard for you .... for clerkship percentages and litigation interests and not wanting to be in NY long term, for campus amenities (nice library, nice gym, one nice building) versus just horrible campus, hard seats/ ugly library, for better grading system versus harsh curve, for more clinics and externships in the litigation area at H (DA Prosecution Clinic, USAO, AG, Supreme Ct Clinic) versus Bronx Defenders,Domestic Violence Prosecution and 10 student limit in USAO at C , brand name of H for Texas or Florida yah it is worth 60k more.
Of course if you had just stayed on the waitlist at UVA or other t13, you would have likely been offered a dillard or very close to full tuition with your stats and that would be the best option with slightly less percentages for clerkship than Harvard. Doesn't sound like you want to take a year off, but that is another issue... at H only like 20 percent are kjd.. they really discourage going straight through at H and most kjd defer a year. A lot more kjd's at t13's. Good luck with your decision. At this point, With your high lsat and being younger, stats are you will do better in law school than all those older non kjd's. I vote go straight through to Harvard.

This has got to be a troll right? At least now I know there's an 0L dumber than me.

I dunno. At least gilmoregirlrevival explained his or her vote. And, although the second paragraph of the post flew off the rails, the first paragraph basically makes the case for H. Folks choose H for those reasons when the COA difference between HLS and CLS is a lot more than 60K. I'm not saying I agree with the post, but y'all are being a little harsh.

[jbagelboy]

OL voting Harvard for you .... for clerkship percentages and litigation interests and not wanting to be in NY long term, for campus amenities (nice library, nice gym, one nice building) versus just horrible campus, hard seats/ ugly library, for better grading system versus harsh curve, for more clinics and externships in the litigation area at H (DA Prosecution Clinic, USAO, AG, Supreme Ct Clinic) versus Bronx Defenders,Domestic Violence Prosecution and 10 student limit in USAO at C , brand name of H for Texas or Florida yah it is worth 60k more.
Of course if you had just stayed on the waitlist at UVA or other t13, you would have likely been offered a dillard or very close to full tuition with your stats and that would be the best option with slightly less percentages for clerkship than Harvard. Doesn't sound like you want to take a year off, but that is another issue... at H only like 20 percent are kjd.. they really discourage going straight through at H and most kjd defer a year. A lot more kjd's at t13's. Good luck with your decision. At this point, With your high lsat and being younger, stats are you will do better in law school than all those older non kjd's. I vote go straight through to Harvard.

This has got to be a troll right? At least now I know there's an 0L dumber than me.

I dunno. At least gilmoregirlrevival explained his or her vote. And, although the second paragraph of the post flew off the rails, the first paragraph basically makes the case for H. Folks choose H for those reasons when the COA difference between HLS and CLS is a lot more than 60K. I'm not saying I agree with the post, but y'all are being a little harsh.

I think he is describing a different school than columbia, which has a beautiful campus

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

[VeiledProtectorate]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

This is probably a dumb question, but why exactly is the bolded bad?

[Rigo]

Clerkships always strike a nerve with TLS's most prolific Columbia posters.

[star fox]

Clerkships always strike a nerve with TLS's most prolific Columbia posters.

you can say that again

[rpupkin]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly reflect that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

[star fox]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly reflect that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

Fair or not I think this is where you get a little bit of your Columbia homer rep jbagel, you acknowledge a gap between T6 and lower T14 but not so much between HYS and T6.

[jbagelboy]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly reflect that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

HLS has better placement than CLS in secondary markets and better clerkship placement

I think the word "brand" is misappropriating a marketing term as an uncomfortable merger of something concrete like cutoffs and something more esoteric. I don't think the shoe fits with regard to comparisons between elite law schools and so it should be discouraged wherever its seen (like the "opening doors" analogy).

In the other thread I was very specific with my language: some firms, although likely not all, will apply different standards in recruiting from Columbia as from Northwestern law schools, just as some firms (like elite lit boutiques) will expect slightly higher performance from CLS than HLS. The question of "branding" doesn't map on to these professional-school-specific considerations.

[jbagelboy]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly reflect that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

Fair or not I think this is where you get a little bit of your Columbia homer rep jbagel, you acknowledge a gap between T6 and lower T14 but not so much between HYS and T6.

I understand what you're saying. But see what I said above and whether that clarifies. I think with regard to employment these schools are on a sliding scale. I do not dispute that there are differences between each of them. In fact, in this thread I have suggested repeatedly that its a tossup between CLS and HLS at a $60k price differential, whereas I typically urge posters who see a $60k price differential between a lower T13 and CLS/Chicago to take the lower T13 money. So I'm pretty consistent about making the opposite value proposition as what you're implying.

[jbagelboy]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly reflect that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

HLS has better placement than CLS in secondary markets and better clerkship placement

I think the word "brand" is misappropriating a marketing term as an uncomfortable merger of something concrete like cutoffs and something more esoteric. I don't think the shoe fits with regard to comparisons between elite law schools and so it should be discouraged wherever its seen (like the "opening doors" analogy).

In the other thread I was very specific with my language: some firms, although likely not all, will apply different standards in recruiting from Columbia as from Northwestern law schools, just as some firms (like elite lit boutiques) will expect slightly higher performance from CLS than HLS. The question of "branding" doesn't map on to these professional-school-specific considerations.

One more point on this. I'm aware that some users may be referencing "brand" more in the social capital sense than in the commercial equity sense. But that's a deeply misleading read of what Bourdieu speaks of when he describes institutions of higher education as engines of cultural reproduction and entrenchment. I think when 0Ls talk about 'brand' they are using either a poorly adapted marketing term, lazy sociology, a Mary Shellyian mating of the two, or more likely, just a more guarded way of howling 'prestige'

[McMooch]

Any 0L reading ABA/LST 9-month clerkship stat as indicative of placement power and who is talking about 'brands' of universities in terms of valuation (both schools have a 'brand', neither of them matters) has lost the point

The ABA/LST numbers fairly that HLS has better clerkship placement than CLS. I can't speak to the entire country, but the more competitive judges on DC/2/9 tend generally gives bumps to HLS grads over CLS grads. And, yeah, I get that clerking isn't a long-term job, but clerkships can be a prerequisite to certain opportunities. It's not an accident, for example, that HLS is much better represented in elite litigation boutiques than CLS.

As for the "brand" business, you made a similar point in another thread about NU vs. CLS in the California market. Although you agreed that the poster there shouldn't choose CLS at sticker over a full ride at NU (where the COA difference was in the neighborhood of $200K), you did contend—correctly, I think—that CLS has at least slightly better placement power than NU in California. The same is true with respect to HLS vs. CLS in pretty much every non-NYC market. HLS student/grads will, on average, outperform CLS students/grads.

Do these advantages mean that HLS is worth 60K more than CLS? Not necessarily, but I don't think it's crazy for someone to consider the question. In my view, that 0L's post was within the bounds of reasonableness.

Is there a consensus about this and it's just a judgement call on the 60k or is this stat debatable?

[rpupkin]

Goals are litigation, especially appellate litigation, in secondary market (TX, FL, etc.).

Oh, I missed this. If your goal is appellate litigation in Texas or Florida, then you should go to a Texas or Florida law school. Neither HLS nor CLS will help you much with your goal.

[rpupkin]

I think the word "brand" is misappropriating a marketing term as an uncomfortable merger of something concrete like cutoffs and something more esoteric. I don't think the shoe fits with regard to comparisons between elite law schools and so it should be discouraged wherever its seen (like the "opening doors" analogy).

I hear you. And "brand" isn't a word that I would use in this context. But I took the 0L's "brand" as a proxy for reputation/placement-power in Texas and Florida. I don't think that usage is unreasonable, particularly for a 0L.

[McMooch]

Goals are litigation, especially appellate litigation, in secondary market (TX, FL, etc.).

Oh, I missed this. If your goal is appellate litigation in Texas or Florida, then you should go to a Texas or Florida law school. Neither HLS nor CLS will help you much with your goal.

Really? That's not the type of secondary market we're referring to?
Also, I don't know exactly where I want to end up living. Does everyone know that in the beginning of their career? I just know that NY or LA is not for me.

[rpupkin]

Goals are litigation, especially appellate litigation, in secondary market (TX, FL, etc.).

Oh, I missed this. If your goal is appellate litigation in Texas or Florida, then you should go to a Texas or Florida law school. Neither HLS nor CLS will help you much with your goal.

Really? That's not the type of secondary market we're referring to?

We were referring to big law offices in secondary markets. But if you're focused on something as esoteric as appellate litigation in Texas or Florida (which the big law firms don't really do), then your focus needs to change.

[Alexandros]

.