Whittier Shutting Down

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mtf612
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby mtf612 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:59 pm

Ouch. The video is rough. I totally sympathize with the students, but schools like Whittier law should not exist. These kids might think their lives are ruined by the school closing, but I'm just happy the school won't be ruining more lives by matriculating new students who will incur $300k of debt to ask such important questions as "what about the 4Ls students" and "did you only look at numbers?"

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JCougar
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby JCougar » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:02 pm

cron1834 wrote:If the students don't secure a teach-out arrangement, they can get a discharge of their Fed loans for a school closing. That could be a dream come true for most of them, whether they realize it now or not. How the hell else are they going to pay off $200k in debt from one of the worst schools in America?


The problem is they don't realize it.

I don't blame 0Ls all that much for falling for the law school scam in the first place. The general public STILL thinks law is a lucrative profession based on the reputation of only the 10% of attorneys who are successful long-term.

The thing is, if reality hasn't hit you by the time you're a 3L--like a lot of people in that video--then there's probably no hope for you, and I do blame you.

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JCougar
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby JCougar » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:06 pm

Yeah, most of those students on the video sounded like the worst kinds of spoiled brats. Oh well. Cold, hard reality is about to fix them.

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mjb447
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby mjb447 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:10 pm

mtf612 wrote:Ouch. The video is rough. I totally sympathize with the students, but schools like Whittier law should not exist. These kids might think their lives are ruined by the school closing, but I'm just happy the school won't be ruining more lives by matriculating new students who will incur $300k of debt to ask such important questions as "what about the 4Ls students" and "did you only look at numbers?"

There was a point where someone in the video said something like "we deserve the facts!" and I momentarily thought "you didn't pay attention to the facts when you decided that enrolling at Whittier was a good decision, so why should they matter now?"

that1one1guy
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby that1one1guy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:24 pm

If anything that video made me feel happier about this school being shut down. I know it sounds cruel but these people just seem horrible and childish. If some school has to close down and screw over its students, I'll sleep easier knowing its these kinds of students.

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby DCfilterDC » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Maybe you're all way more mature than me. But if I was in that position I think I would probably be pretty emotional/stressed and not really be as "proper" as I'm expected to be

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Pomeranian
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Honestly, if I had shelled out 200K and found my school was closing up shop a week before graduation (likely without a job lined up), I would be pretty testy too.

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renc56
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby renc56 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:49 pm

I think the situation is very sad because I do think the people who chose Whittier truly believed that a JD would grant them an education that would break the cycle of poverty they and their families have endured. I hate the for-profit colleges for helping to put more low-income, normally POC, into degree mills with lots of debt and no job options.

While we can say, "Well, they should have known better".. when you are low-income and you have people in your community and family pushing you to attend x university, it's a completely different world than those who are aware of for-profit colleges, read ATL, and have friends and family members who currently are in law school. They're not meant to be lawyers and it'd be great if there was something done better at the college-level to educate people about law school in general.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:41 pm

jjcorvino wrote:"What happens to the 4ls?!?!"

What on earth is that? I know some schools have a JD/MBA program but I doubt that is what they are referring to.

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star fox
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby star fox » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:42 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
jjcorvino wrote:"What happens to the 4ls?!?!"

What on earth is that? I know some schools have a JD/MBA program but I doubt that is what they are referring to.

People who repeat 3L which is I guess a thing.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:18 am

yupyup wrote:The faculty tried to get a TRO.
http://abovethelaw.com/2017/04/whittier ... -its-wake/

Holy shit

These "people" need to be offered to isis as human sacrifice

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Rahviveh
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:26 am

Pomeranian wrote:There are way to many TTT law schools in California. There are several in LA metro area alone! I'm sure they will be happy to enroll the student-ATM's that would have gone to Whittier. :roll:


This ones in Orange County. There are several law schools in Orange County and they are all shitholes except Uci.

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Pomeranian
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Pomeranian » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:28 am

Rahviveh wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:There are way to many TTT law schools in California. There are several in LA metro area alone! I'm sure they will be happy to enroll the student-ATM's that would have gone to Whittier. :roll:


This ones in Orange County. There are several law schools in Orange County and they are all shitholes except Uci.


What are your thoughts on Chapman?

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haus
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby haus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:36 am

ManoftheHour wrote:
jjcorvino wrote:"What happens to the 4ls?!?!"

What on earth is that? I know some schools have a JD/MBA program but I doubt that is what they are referring to.

Part-time students?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:39 am

Pomeranian wrote:
Rahviveh wrote:
Pomeranian wrote:There are way to many TTT law schools in California. There are several in LA metro area alone! I'm sure they will be happy to enroll the student-ATM's that would have gone to Whittier. :roll:


This ones in Orange County. There are several law schools in Orange County and they are all shitholes except Uci.


What are your thoughts on Chapman?


I feel chapman has a good rep amongst locals even though it's fairly new. They have more money too so unfortunately I don't think they'll be closing anytime soon.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:39 am

haus wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
jjcorvino wrote:"What happens to the 4ls?!?!"

What on earth is that? I know some schools have a JD/MBA program but I doubt that is what they are referring to.

Part-time students?

Probably people on school funded fellowships

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lawlzzz
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lawlzzz » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:16 am

haus wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
jjcorvino wrote:"What happens to the 4ls?!?!"

What on earth is that? I know some schools have a JD/MBA program but I doubt that is what they are referring to.

Part-time students?


Exactly what I was thinking. I've heard of part-time students in their last year referred to as 4Ls. Makes sense.

lawman84
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lawman84 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:40 am

"The 3L class this year, I'm sure are going to have great results because I know a lot of them and they're all very intelligent and they know how to write and they've done well."

Woof.

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mtf612
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby mtf612 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:05 am

lawman84 wrote:"they know how to write"


I let out a loud sigh at that part of the video. Oh shit, your fellow law students know how to write?! Well, they must be super fucking qualified then!

cavalier1138
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

renc56 wrote:I think the situation is very sad because I do think the people who chose Whittier truly believed that a JD would grant them an education that would break the cycle of poverty they and their families have endured. I hate the for-profit colleges for helping to put more low-income, normally POC, into degree mills with lots of debt and no job options.

While we can say, "Well, they should have known better".. when you are low-income and you have people in your community and family pushing you to attend x university, it's a completely different world than those who are aware of for-profit colleges, read ATL, and have friends and family members who currently are in law school. They're not meant to be lawyers and it'd be great if there was something done better at the college-level to educate people about law school in general.


I sympathize. I do. But it seems more than a little dangerous to basically say that poor people are too incompetent to go online (which is something that can be done at public libraries, etc., so don't come back with the "not everyone has internet" line). Literally any research outside of the school's official website would tell someone that this is a bad idea. Hell, looking at the school's official website and actually reading the employment stats would be enough for anyone who's able to read.

Even worse, I think that a lot of them probably did hear about how bad the school was. We get TTTT applicants/students who drop by these forums on a semi-regular basis. When someone has convinced themselves that they're really smart, talented, and totally cut out for the profession, they literally will not listen to anyone that suggests otherwise. You can find dozens of threads where someone get upset that anyone would dare suggest that people not chase their dreams at John Marshall (or equivalent).

Students who matriculated before the ABA cracked down on disclosure might have a stronger case, but every one of these students turned a blind eye to reality when they chose to enroll. The people running the school are terrible, but that doesn't absolve the students of all responsibility.

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White Dwarf
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby White Dwarf » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:35 am

The saddest thing is that 38% bar passage rate was for the Class of 2015, who had a 151 LSAT median. Their 2017 and 2019 classes had a 146. This is going to even sadder.

Their bar results are actually kinda fascinating:

Class of 2013: LSATs 150/152/154 --> Bar Passage 65%
Class of 2014: LSATs 149/152/154 --> Bar Passage 47%
Class of 2015: LSATs 148/151/153 --> Bar Passage 38%

Class of 2019: LSATs 144/146/149 --> Bar Passage ???

1L attrition is around 20% each year. Unless 150 is a major tipping point, something else is going on at these schools.

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Stephylynette
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Stephylynette » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:45 am

renc56 wrote:I think the situation is very sad because I do think the people who chose Whittier truly believed that a JD would grant them an education that would break the cycle of poverty they and their families have endured. I hate the for-profit colleges for helping to put more low-income, normally POC, into degree mills with lots of debt and no job options.

While we can say, "Well, they should have known better".. when you are low-income and you have people in your community and family pushing you to attend x university, it's a completely different world than those who are aware of for-profit colleges, read ATL, and have friends and family members who currently are in law school. They're not meant to be lawyers and it'd be great if there was something done better at the college-level to educate people about law school in general.

I agree with this completely. I'm the first person in my huge family to even consider going to graduate school. When I took the LSAT, I didn't even realize it was something you could study for. So my first sitting was basically a diagnostic test for me because I didn't know I could've prepared for it beforehand. There is a genuine gap in admissions knowledge between communities. Idk. I just feel bad for these people. I'm glad they'll likely get their debt wiped away and have some semblance of a normal life.

poptart123
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby poptart123 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:51 am

When the girl says "I have over $200,000 worth of debt because of this school" and people started clapping I nearly lost it.

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UVA2B
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby UVA2B » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:09 am

Despite the really sad reality for these students, isn't this exactly the drumbeat signal we've all been waiting for? Dating back to the beginnings of Paul Campos and ATL to now, there have been structural shifts to end predatory law schools who dupe applicants into believing it's a good investment to go to a place that has 38% bar passage.

I guess I see this as necessary short-term, isolated personal pain for the overall greater good of the legal profession. For the continued health of the entire profession, this is a process that will need to be repeated several more times before the legal profession has correctly responded to conventional economics (outside the fantastic idea above of a new statute requiring law schools to become guarantors of a minimum bar passage rate, which could likely fix this issue pretty quickly and accelerate the process of thinning the herd).

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renc56
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby renc56 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:36 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
renc56 wrote:I think the situation is very sad because I do think the people who chose Whittier truly believed that a JD would grant them an education that would break the cycle of poverty they and their families have endured. I hate the for-profit colleges for helping to put more low-income, normally POC, into degree mills with lots of debt and no job options.

While we can say, "Well, they should have known better".. when you are low-income and you have people in your community and family pushing you to attend x university, it's a completely different world than those who are aware of for-profit colleges, read ATL, and have friends and family members who currently are in law school. They're not meant to be lawyers and it'd be great if there was something done better at the college-level to educate people about law school in general.


I sympathize. I do. But it seems more than a little dangerous to basically say that poor people are too incompetent to go online (which is something that can be done at public libraries, etc., so don't come back with the "not everyone has internet" line). Literally any research outside of the school's official website would tell someone that this is a bad idea. Hell, looking at the school's official website and actually reading the employment stats would be enough for anyone who's able to read.

Even worse, I think that a lot of them probably did hear about how bad the school was. We get TTTT applicants/students who drop by these forums on a semi-regular basis. When someone has convinced themselves that they're really smart, talented, and totally cut out for the profession, they literally will not listen to anyone that suggests otherwise. You can find dozens of threads where someone get upset that anyone would dare suggest that people not chase their dreams at John Marshall (or equivalent).

Students who matriculated before the ABA cracked down on disclosure might have a stronger case, but every one of these students turned a blind eye to reality when they chose to enroll. The people running the school are terrible, but that doesn't absolve the students of all responsibility.


You have to have internet to register for the LSAT so I'm not saying that these are people who have absolutely no resources - just that the resources they have (school-wise, parents, whichever) suck. Even my parents - who are educated - really don't know the difference between law schools other than "Huh, it's not HYS so I've never heard of it" and "Stanford has a law school? Why don't you go there?"

If you have the JD = money line of thinking, why would you look at employment statistics? Even at a T-14 admitted students day, there were tons of prospective students asking about employment info or general information that was easily accessible online. I blame it on the barely legitimate law schools' advertising that says that they're #1 in x or who offer incentives like free computers/free summer course/etc.

As for the people defending John Marshall or the equivalent - that's odd. Really odd. I cannot say I get it because I don't. While there is a lot of self-blame they can take on (piled on by loans), I do feel for some of the students and I'm not absolving them of responsibility. I just wish there was more in place to educate people about law school, whether it's people who go to degree mills or those who "like to argue" and thought that they could easily make money/have prestige if they went to a lower-ranked but still respectable school. I realize people can be ignorant about a number of things but to taking advantage of that just seems cruel.




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