Harvard vs UVA Forum

[Boiler2020]

Hey everybody, I've got a big decision and any help would be appreciated. I'm definitely leaning one way, but figured I'd toss it out here to see if my thinking is validated or if there's something I should be thinking about that I've missed so far. And before anybody thinks I missed the UVA deposit deadline today, I did deposit. I also sent a negotiation email this morning thinking it wouldn't get looked at until after the deposit deadline so they knew where their class stood, but they got back to me before lunch saying they'll be staying put at the current offer.

Stats: 173/3.57

Harvard: No grant. Possibility for a grant year 3 since I'll be old enough by then that my parents income won't be considered anymore.
UVA: 135k scholarship (45k/year) and in-state tuition.

I paid off my undergrad loans in about a year and a half and in the 2.5 years since I've accumulated modest savings. Barring major unforeseen expenses, my savings would get me through 1L year and summer at UVA without loans with a little leftover to put toward 2L tuition. They would get me through about a semester at Harvard. Beyond savings, it will be loan financed.

Mostly interested in doing administrative law. I'd like to work for a government agency, ideally an energy or technology focused one (DOE, NRC, etc). I'm keeping an open mind though and willing to change directions if I find something else that I love. With my engineering background I'm definitely open to patent law. I might be interested in something with a policy component someday, but for now I view policy as more of a hobby (hence the JD instead of MPP). I know I can't do biglaw as a long term career, but I plan on attending OCI/OGI and willing to consider the money as a loan repayment strategy.

Biggest draw to Harvard is LIPP so there's a wider variety of lower paying careers that are viable even with the added debt. Love the UVA culture and I've lived in Virginia for about the past four years so I have a lot of friends in Richmond/Williamsburg and wouldn't mind staying close to them. I'm not tied down geographically long term, but if I had to pick right now I'd say DC.

[Itiswritten]

While I don't have a substantive answer for you, I commend you for having the foresight/prudence to consider finances even after acceptance to H.

Congrats and good luck on your decision.

[UVA2B]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

[cavalier1138]

I guess the main question is whether you think you're going to be repaying your debt from UVA on a regular 10-year plan, or if you'd be planning on using PSLF/LRAP to do it.

If you think it's the latter (and I suspect it is), then go to Harvard for the LIPP.

[jbagelboy]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I don't know if this is that tough of a call. UVA at $45k/year? Versus HLS at $0? Seems like UVA is a pretty clearly preferable option.

[Nebby]

UVA. Places extremely well in DC biglaw and federal government. You got a killer deal. Congratulations!

[Nebby]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I guess the main question is whether you think you're going to be repaying your debt from UVA on a regular 10-year plan, or if you'd be planning on using PSLF/LRAP to do it.

If you think it's the latter (and I suspect it is), then go to Harvard for the LIPP.

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

[UVA2B]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I don't know if this is that tough of a call. UVA at $45k/year? Versus HLS at $0? Seems like UVA is a pretty clearly preferable option.

The looming possibility of LIPP makes it more tricky to me since OP wants regulatory work in DC. I prefer UVA, but if the OP was clearly all-in on doing regulatory work in DC where repayment will be covered by LIPP, it at least becomes trickier. I would never bet on getting DOE/NRC jobs from either school, but Harvard gives a non-negligible boost in fedgov hiring over UVA.

Like I said, it's safer to take UVA with less debt because the increased benefit of Harvard is not worth the extra cost to me, but if OP was truly gunning for fedgov work and intends to entirely rely on LIPP after graduation, it's not quite as clear-cut. Considering the OP doesn't seem intent on the fedgov career path, UVA is the better choice. But that requires reading into the OP how set they are on one particular outcome.

[Pure Applesauce]

I don't know if this is that tough of a call. UVA at $45k/year? Versus HLS at $0? Seems like UVA is a pretty clearly preferable option.

I agree with this. I don't think this is that hard. UVA

[UVA2B]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I guess the main question is whether you think you're going to be repaying your debt from UVA on a regular 10-year plan, or if you'd be planning on using PSLF/LRAP to do it.

If you think it's the latter (and I suspect it is), then go to Harvard for the LIPP.

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

It's impossible to parse the data of DC placement vs. DC Biglaw vs. DC Fedgov placement across schools like that. UVA does well in DC, and so does Harvard. What we don't know specifically is how well UVA vs. Harvard places in DC Fedgov.

[UVA2B]

Just realized I'm arguing against my original proposition. UVA is the better decision to me, but I wanted to caveat that I can understand picking Harvard if dead set on DC fedgov, and more specifically, relying on LIPP at DOE/NRC.

[Nebby]

[cavalier1138]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I guess the main question is whether you think you're going to be repaying your debt from UVA on a regular 10-year plan, or if you'd be planning on using PSLF/LRAP to do it.

If you think it's the latter (and I suspect it is), then go to Harvard for the LIPP.

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

Right. But in terms of repayment, LIPP is way more comprehensive than UVA's LRAP.

So if the OP's not actually going to be paying off the debt without those programs, then I'd take the better repayment assistance.

[Nebby]

This is one of the tougher calls I've seen recently in this debate, but I'd tend to lean toward less debt simply because your current interests don't seem to be completely set in stone. UVA with $135k still leaves a lot to be paid off, but if it ends up being UVA for $100k debt vs. Harvard for $200k+, I just personally don't think Harvard is worth that much more than UVA. Regulatory work in DC is undoubtedly easier to get from Harvard, and LIPP is totally legit in covering you with pay at DOE/NRC etc. being lower, at least initially, than doing something like IP Law in DC. But you have the right background to make that type of job a possibility from either.

I err on the side of less debt when it's this close, but also totally understand the appeal of Harvard's better placement in FedGov.

Tough call for many reasons, and I don't think many would begrudge you for taking either considering how well you've thought this all out. But that debt will weigh on you pretty heavily when you're paying it off, and that is what would tip the scales for me personally.

I guess the main question is whether you think you're going to be repaying your debt from UVA on a regular 10-year plan, or if you'd be planning on using PSLF/LRAP to do it.

If you think it's the latter (and I suspect it is), then go to Harvard for the LIPP.

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

Right. But in terms of repayment, LIPP is way more comprehensive than UVA's LRAP.

So if the OP's not actually going to be paying off the debt without those programs, then I'd take the better repayment assistance.

Tying OP's hands with 300k for no conceivable advantage is not good advice

[guynourmin]

Do OPs career goals mean they could do a 2L SA and still go straight into fedgov? My understanding is yes, and maybe even something stronger than a simple yes (as in,doing an SA is the right choice for those goals, right?). If so, they OP can graduate from UVA with probably under $30k in debt. Even with LIPP being stronger than UVAs LRAP that amount of debt seems unnecessary.

[Nebby]

Do OPs career goals mean they could do a 2L SA and still go straight into fedgov? My understanding is yes, and maybe even something stronger than a simple yes (as in,doing an SA is the right choice for those goals, right?). If so, they OP can graduate from UVA with probably under $30k in debt. Even with LIPP being stronger than UVAs LRAP that amount of debt seems unnecessary.

OP could (should) do fedgov in summer 1L, biglaw 2L summer (get offered), and during spring 2L or fall 3L (preferably spring 2L) do a full time semester long externship in fedgov in the UVA LAW IN DC externship program. This demonstrates commitment to public service, while having biglaw as a backup in case they fail to get fedgov entry level position

[VirginiaFan]

.

[Nebby]

Do OPs career goals mean they could do a 2L SA and still go straight into fedgov? My understanding is yes, and maybe even something stronger than a simple yes (as in,doing an SA is the right choice for those goals, right?). If so, they OP can graduate from UVA with probably under $30k in debt. Even with LIPP being stronger than UVAs LRAP that amount of debt seems unnecessary.

OP could (should) do fedgov in summer 1L, biglaw 2L summer (get offered), and during spring 2L or fall 3L (preferably spring 2L) do a full time semester long externship in fedgov in the UVA LAW IN DC externship program. This demonstrates commitment to public service, while having biglaw as a backup in case they fail to get fedgov entry level position

I may be mistaken, but I believe this is only open to fall 3L's.

Well then Fall 3L it is!

CLS has a CLS in DC externship modeled on UVA's, and it is open for Spring 2L and 3Ls (Fall/Spring). It's a great program and even better for people interested in gaining fedgov experience and want to maximize their chance of entry-level employment in fedgov (which is difficult to attain no matter where you go to school).

[rpupkin]

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

No it doesn't. But I still agree that UVA is probably the right call here.

[Nebby]

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

No it doesn't. But I still agree that UVA is probably the right call here.

Please enlighten me

[rpupkin]

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

No it doesn't. But I still agree that UVA is probably the right call here.

Please enlighten me

Many DC offices will dip lower into HLS's class than UVA's class. If I was median-pwned and wanted DC big law, I'd rather be at HLS than UVA.

[Nebby]

Surprisingly ill-informed opinions from both of you. UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard.

No it doesn't. But I still agree that UVA is probably the right call here.

Please enlighten me

Many DC offices will dip lower into HLS's class than UVA's class. If I was median-pwned and wanted DC big law, I'd rather be at HLS than UVA.

I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

[rpupkin]

I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

[Nebby]

I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

[rpupkin]

I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

I wouldn't say my opinion is rooted in intuition. But it is rooted in anecdotal observation, as I'm sure yours is.

I have classmates, colleagues, and friends from throughout the T14 who have targeted fedgov positions. Grades/rank is generally less of a factor for HYS grads compared to other T14 grads.

What's your basis for saying that "UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard?"