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There are many, to list a few, a student board with more diversity (caucasian students are overly-represented in student board as they are the majority vote), have more inclusion activities so students can know each other, ask the professors to give students more chances to speak up, etc There are more for them to choose as they know the system. Since the culture is rooted, it is difficult to change in short time but efforts could be made,PeanutsNJam wrote:Just out of curiosity, what do you think the law school can do about this? Admit more non-white students? Would a larger percentage of black/Hispanic students solve your problem?
OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.Nolita Fairytale wrote:I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.
Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.
No I m not. See previous posts. There is also lack of communication btw local students and students of other ethnic groups in law school. This is not as true in other UMN colleges though.SemiReverseSplinter wrote:OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.Nolita Fairytale wrote:I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.
Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.
It's good to see this information about Minnesota. I can't say I'm very surprised in relation to the issues surrounding international students. I think that must be the case in a lot of these law schools. I'm an international student myself and was considering Minnesota as an LLM because of the funding I was given. However, I have other options. Regardless of being a regional school I think their LLM looks great and useful for the purposes of bar prep. To be honest if I saw someone rolling their eyes while I talk I would laugh really. Takes balls to study law in a different context and legal system. I would like to see these "heroes" study law abroad in an unfamiliar environment. In any case, the people at the international office seem to be really nice and I generally seem like to like school but it's good to know these details about the life of an international student at Minnesota before I make a decision.lichtblickz wrote:No I m not. See previous posts. There is also lack of communication btw local students and students of other ethnic groups in law school. This is not as true in other UMN colleges though.SemiReverseSplinter wrote:OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.Nolita Fairytale wrote:I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.
Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.
Well perhaps thats where the discussion is going but I'm more interested in the course itself rather than a fruitless debate on students and their ethnicities.Pragmatic Gun wrote:Potential for arguments of race. I'm tagging this thread for future entertainment.
lichtblickz wrote:Racism is rare at UMN but inclusion is also rare. The student board has been all-white for several years as far as I know. There is very little communication between LLM students and JD students, and little communication students between international students and local students.
One of the prevalent views of the international students among the local students: “they come here to send money to the school but are not quite qualified.” I heard several times in the class that the local students snickered at another international student who answered a question at class with an accent... More of them just show the facial expression of impatience. The culture is just like that.
The local legal market for international students in Minnesota is not strong. NONE of the several dozens of international students (JD, LLM) found a law-firm work in MInnesota. Some of them found work in California and New York though. Even if you choose to work on immigration law, there are not many opportunities in the state as there is not much international business or many immigrants.
Agree or not, Minneapolis are is a pretty good area, but the law school is not very inclusive (compared to other east/west coast law schools I heard about). I have to say most professors are friendly. The new dean seems to start working on this, though the administration specializing on diversity & student program does not seem very efficient on inclusion or assistance to international students.
So my advice: think twice, if you are not of the local culture here.
I gotta ask: Have you made an effort to talk to the local students?lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.
I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...
2. However I would have researched, I could not have imagined that here many local JD students barely talk with international JD and LLMs, not to mention other inclusion matters.
This post was shitty. OP's complaint was not "the school is not diverse enough." It was "the school is not inclusive enough." There is a difference. OP mentioned that the student board was all-white, but presumably he/she mentioned it because there are non-white students who could have been on the board, but aren't.bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.
I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...
Yeah, but it does include Brits, Aussies, and other international students who are far less likely to experience any real form of bias in school.stego wrote:Also, just by looking at Minnesota's 509, it's a lot more diverse than I would have expected. The entering JD class contained 55 "nonresident aliens" (out of 555). That doesn't include the minority US students.
Right. Plus lots of other diverse groups. The twin cities are about 63% white, which is far from monolithic.A. Nony Mouse wrote:There are actually a shitload of Ethopians and Hmong in the Twin Cities - it's not like it's solely a bastion of nordic whiteness. Now, I'm not going to argue that that translates into diversity at the law school, but I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about the state here (or at least the metro Twin Cities, which is where the law school is).
Subconscious racial bias is a real thing. It's definitely a factor here, but I think you're underestimating the cultural differences here. There are a lot less cultural differences for Western European international students than there are for hmong international students in regards to white Americans.sanzgo wrote:with the exception of certain schools like berkeley, you'll find most law schools are predominantly white. so if you're an international student from a non-caucasian country, you'll definitely experience some moments where you feel like you don't belong. people often like to say it's not about race, it's about culture but i was surprised to find that's actually not that true. the caucasian international student from france for example, has an easier time assimilating than the hmong international student. why? i can't say exactly but probably b/c american caucasian people tend to have a greater social/biological affinity towards foreigners of "their kind" than those of a different kind. the exception to this is if you're a female east-asian international who is hot. but that's just b/c there's a lot of thirsty white dudes in law school.
And a TON of somalis, I mean they practically run the airport here.A. Nony Mouse wrote:There are actually a shitload of Ethopians and Hmong in the Twin Cities - it's not like it's solely a bastion of nordic whiteness. Now, I'm not going to argue that that translates into diversity at the law school, but I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about the state here (or at least the metro Twin Cities, which is where the law school is).
Haven't decided yet. Found some jobs but not so satisfied.TheSpanishMain wrote:Op, are you trying to work in the us, or return home?
Of course. Came to bar before and several students in my section can speak among themselves without looking at me for more than 10 mins. Some students are very friendly though. As for a few students, if you say hello to them, they sometimes pretend not hearing it.lavarman84 wrote:I gotta ask: Have you made an effort to talk to the local students?lichtblickz wrote:1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.
I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...
2. However I would have researched, I could not have imagined that here many local JD students barely talk with international JD and LLMs, not to mention other inclusion matters.