Columbia (Hamilton) vs. Harvard for PI/clerking Forum

[Veil of Ignorance]

- I've gathered that it's easier to go from BL/private sector to PI than the reverse (veterans ITT - please correct me if I'm wrong)

It's actually not easy. You have to strategically position yourself from day one of law school in order to go biglaw -> PI. It's equally difficult to go from PI to biglaw and biglaw to PI.

Are you including government work in this? I thought going (biglaw litigation --> ADA or public defender) wasn't too hard.

Biglaw litigation to ADA/PD would actually be kind of unusual. To AUSA/federal PD, not really (it's competitive, but a career path that makes sense), but for state, it would be unusual. I'm not saying it would be impossible or never happens, but the longer you're in biglaw the weirder it would be. It would be weird to take a midlevel biglaw person as an entry level lawyer, and you wouldn't have enough trial experience to come in as a lateral. DA/PD's offices would also be suspicious that you really wanted to give up the biglaw salary to go work as an ADA/PD; you normally need to show commitment/dedication through experience. Also you can get ADA/PD jobs out of law school (not usually the case for AUSA/FPD) so employers would wonder why you just didn't do that.

And I agree with Nebby (to the extent that I understand this) that the people who go from biglaw --> impact lit PI tend to have been angling for a specific path. You probably *can* figure it out as you go along (because there's a lot more serendipity in career paths than TLS sometimes acknowledges), but it will make a big difference to lay a foundation early.

Very good to know. I didn't realize that years in biglaw wouldn't allow one to lateral to a higher ADA level. But why does a lateral move to a AUSA officer make any more sense? Isn't it just trial work in a different level of jurisdiction?

[Nebby]

Thanks all. I know CLS is the logical choice and I'm leaning towards it. My brain knows that but hope when I visit next month I will catch the feels for it too.

Also interesting to hear about the biglaw to PI litigation stuff. I'd do basically anything to avoid biglaw but it was seeming like maybe it was a necessary or common stepping stone to impact lit. If it's not, then that's fantastic. Just trying to learn about all of this stuff...

It's not necessary to go biglaw for impact lit. It's way to idiosyncratic to make any generalized statements, but it is true that there are relatively few entry level PI positions.

[oliverotis]

Not really sure why people in here are even discussing the possibility that OP ultimately decides to spend some time in biglaw. That contingency only lends support to taking the Hamilton (unless OP has a particularly strong aversion to NYC, but even still).

IMO the only real variable here is CLS's bad PI support. It's not just self-selection that causes CLS to have one of the lowest % of graduates going into PI. I don't think they even have an independent office of PI advising, and the very low % of graduates doing PI work (at least 9 months out) means that you'll have a far weaker alumni base to draw from. Connections matter a lot in PI. I would talk to some 2Ls and 3Ls who did not do OCI and ask them about the kind of support they've gotten (and take note that everyone will probably sugarcoat everything).

I think given OP's interest in PI, and his desire to clerk and possible interest in academia (obv. competitive but much, much easier from HLS), this is not an obvious decision, esp. if OP would get some FinAid from HLS.

TL;DR: if you wanted biglaw the Hamilton would be a no-brainer, but I'd be wary of the TLS debt-aversion groupthink given your interests

ETA: actually read the whole thread now, and see you aren't eligible for any FinAid at HLS. You should probably take the Hammy.

ETA2: LIPP really is not as good as people think. There are a few good, comprehensive threads on here about it, definitely worth a deep dive.

[RSN]

Not really sure why people in here are even discussing the possibility that OP ultimately decides to spend some time in biglaw. That contingency only lends support to taking the Hamilton (unless OP has a particularly strong aversion to NYC, but even still).

IMO the only real variable here is CLS's bad PI support. It's not just self-selection that causes CLS to have one of the lowest % of graduates going into PI. I don't think they even have an independent office of PI advising, and the very low % of graduates doing PI work (at least 9 months out) means that you'll have a far weaker alumni base to draw from. Connections matter a lot in PI. I would talk to some 2Ls and 3Ls who did not do OCI and ask them about the kind of support they've gotten (and take note that everyone will probably sugarcoat everything).

I think given OP's interest in PI, and his desire to clerk and possible interest in academia (obv. competitive but much, much easier from HLS), this is not an obvious decision, esp. if OP would get some FinAid from HLS.

TL;DR: if you wanted biglaw the Hamilton would be a no-brainer, but I'd be wary of the TLS debt-aversion groupthink given your interests

ETA: actually read the whole thread now, and see you aren't eligible for any FinAid at HLS. You should probably take the Hammy.

ETA2: LIPP really is not as good as people think. There are a few good, comprehensive threads on here about it, definitely worth a deep dive.

This is wrong, and you could've figured that out with a five second Google. Not helpful and counterproductive to go around giving advice without knowing what you're talking about.

[Nebby]

Not really sure why people in here are even discussing the possibility that OP ultimately decides to spend some time in biglaw. That contingency only lends support to taking the Hamilton (unless OP has a particularly strong aversion to NYC, but even still).

IMO the only real variable here is CLS's bad PI support. It's not just self-selection that causes CLS to have one of the lowest % of graduates going into PI. I don't think they even have an independent office of PI advising, and the very low % of graduates doing PI work (at least 9 months out) means that you'll have a far weaker alumni base to draw from. Connections matter a lot in PI. I would talk to some 2Ls and 3Ls who did not do OCI and ask them about the kind of support they've gotten (and take note that everyone will probably sugarcoat everything).

I think given OP's interest in PI, and his desire to clerk and possible interest in academia (obv. competitive but much, much easier from HLS), this is not an obvious decision, esp. if OP would get some FinAid from HLS.

TL;DR: if you wanted biglaw the Hamilton would be a no-brainer, but I'd be wary of the TLS debt-aversion groupthink given your interests

ETA: actually read the whole thread now, and see you aren't eligible for any FinAid at HLS. You should probably take the Hammy.

ETA2: LIPP really is not as good as people think. There are a few good, comprehensive threads on here about it, definitely worth a deep dive.

Wow you know nothing about CLS. Mods really should ban 0Ls from posting on threads where someone facing a legitimately tough decision could get swayed by dumbasses like this.

[A. Nony Mouse]

- I've gathered that it's easier to go from BL/private sector to PI than the reverse (veterans ITT - please correct me if I'm wrong)

It's actually not easy. You have to strategically position yourself from day one of law school in order to go biglaw -> PI. It's equally difficult to go from PI to biglaw and biglaw to PI.

Are you including government work in this? I thought going (biglaw litigation --> ADA or public defender) wasn't too hard.

Biglaw litigation to ADA/PD would actually be kind of unusual. To AUSA/federal PD, not really (it's competitive, but a career path that makes sense), but for state, it would be unusual. I'm not saying it would be impossible or never happens, but the longer you're in biglaw the weirder it would be. It would be weird to take a midlevel biglaw person as an entry level lawyer, and you wouldn't have enough trial experience to come in as a lateral. DA/PD's offices would also be suspicious that you really wanted to give up the biglaw salary to go work as an ADA/PD; you normally need to show commitment/dedication through experience. Also you can get ADA/PD jobs out of law school (not usually the case for AUSA/FPD) so employers would wonder why you just didn't do that.

And I agree with Nebby (to the extent that I understand this) that the people who go from biglaw --> impact lit PI tend to have been angling for a specific path. You probably *can* figure it out as you go along (because there's a lot more serendipity in career paths than TLS sometimes acknowledges), but it will make a big difference to lay a foundation early.

Very good to know. I didn't realize that years in biglaw wouldn't allow one to lateral to a higher ADA level. But why does a lateral move to a AUSA officer make any more sense? Isn't it just trial work in a different level of jurisdiction?

Yes, except USAOs don't generally hire straight out of school and want people to have experience first. I can't tell you why, it's just a difference in how the two employers hire. (Also ADA and AUSA are pretty different experiences day to day, even though they're both criminal trial work.)

[blueperiod]

Thanks all. I know CLS is the logical choice and I'm leaning towards it. My brain knows that but hope when I visit next month I will catch the feels for it too.

Also interesting to hear about the biglaw to PI litigation stuff. I'd do basically anything to avoid biglaw but it was seeming like maybe it was a necessary or common stepping stone to impact lit. If it's not, then that's fantastic. Just trying to learn about all of this stuff...

It's not necessary to go biglaw for impact lit. It's way to idiosyncratic to make any generalized statements, but it is true that there are relatively few entry level PI positions.

Gotcha, thanks.

From my understanding there's no CLS LRAP support for bar loans. How did you /other PI people generally cope with that? Thanks!

[Nebby]

Thanks all. I know CLS is the logical choice and I'm leaning towards it. My brain knows that but hope when I visit next month I will catch the feels for it too.

Also interesting to hear about the biglaw to PI litigation stuff. I'd do basically anything to avoid biglaw but it was seeming like maybe it was a necessary or common stepping stone to impact lit. If it's not, then that's fantastic. Just trying to learn about all of this stuff...

It's not necessary to go biglaw for impact lit. It's way to idiosyncratic to make any generalized statements, but it is true that there are relatively few entry level PI positions.

Gotcha, thanks.

From my understanding there's no CLS LRAP support for bar loans. How did you /other PI people generally cope with that? Thanks!

I lived at home while studying for the bar and pinched pennies throughout 3L to have enough left over to last the summer until I started my job. Pursuing PI takes some personal sacrifice but with proper planning it's manageable.

[oliverotis]

Not really sure why people in here are even discussing the possibility that OP ultimately decides to spend some time in biglaw. That contingency only lends support to taking the Hamilton (unless OP has a particularly strong aversion to NYC, but even still).

IMO the only real variable here is CLS's bad PI support. It's not just self-selection that causes CLS to have one of the lowest % of graduates going into PI. I don't think they even have an independent office of PI advising, and the very low % of graduates doing PI work (at least 9 months out) means that you'll have a far weaker alumni base to draw from. Connections matter a lot in PI. I would talk to some 2Ls and 3Ls who did not do OCI and ask them about the kind of support they've gotten (and take note that everyone will probably sugarcoat everything).

I think given OP's interest in PI, and his desire to clerk and possible interest in academia (obv. competitive but much, much easier from HLS), this is not an obvious decision, esp. if OP would get some FinAid from HLS.

TL;DR: if you wanted biglaw the Hamilton would be a no-brainer, but I'd be wary of the TLS debt-aversion groupthink given your interests

ETA: actually read the whole thread now, and see you aren't eligible for any FinAid at HLS. You should probably take the Hammy.

ETA2: LIPP really is not as good as people think. There are a few good, comprehensive threads on here about it, definitely worth a deep dive.

Wow you know nothing about CLS. Mods really should ban 0Ls from posting on threads where someone facing a legitimately tough decision could get swayed by dumbasses like this.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

I'm pretty sure ~6.5% is lower than any of the other T6, which looks even worse when you compare clerkship percentages and factor in the relative # of people that will go into PI after clerking.

Also re: office of public interest advising, I Googled around and couldn't find anything. Prove me wrong instead of just laying on the ad hominem?

[curry1]

Not really sure why people in here are even discussing the possibility that OP ultimately decides to spend some time in biglaw. That contingency only lends support to taking the Hamilton (unless OP has a particularly strong aversion to NYC, but even still).

IMO the only real variable here is CLS's bad PI support. It's not just self-selection that causes CLS to have one of the lowest % of graduates going into PI. I don't think they even have an independent office of PI advising, and the very low % of graduates doing PI work (at least 9 months out) means that you'll have a far weaker alumni base to draw from. Connections matter a lot in PI. I would talk to some 2Ls and 3Ls who did not do OCI and ask them about the kind of support they've gotten (and take note that everyone will probably sugarcoat everything).

I think given OP's interest in PI, and his desire to clerk and possible interest in academia (obv. competitive but much, much easier from HLS), this is not an obvious decision, esp. if OP would get some FinAid from HLS.

TL;DR: if you wanted biglaw the Hamilton would be a no-brainer, but I'd be wary of the TLS debt-aversion groupthink given your interests

ETA: actually read the whole thread now, and see you aren't eligible for any FinAid at HLS. You should probably take the Hammy.

ETA2: LIPP really is not as good as people think. There are a few good, comprehensive threads on here about it, definitely worth a deep dive.

Wow you know nothing about CLS. Mods really should ban 0Ls from posting on threads where someone facing a legitimately tough decision could get swayed by dumbasses like this.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

I'm pretty sure ~6.5% is lower than any of the other T6, which looks even worse when you compare clerkship percentages and factor in the relative # of people that will go into PI after clerking.

Also re: office of public interest advising, I Googled around and couldn't find anything. Prove me wrong instead of just laying on the ad hominem?

http://www.law.columbia.edu/social-just ... e/advising

[Nebby]

Lol olivertits

[Alexandros]

.

[Nebby]

Give him a break. He's trying really hard to not look like he lacks any relevant experience to be giving information ITT

[oliverotis]

Give him a break. He's trying really hard to not look like he lacks any relevant experience to be giving information ITT

Fair, but still none of you have even tried to refute the claim that CLS sucks for PI...again I point to the miserable employment data. Maybe it's moot for OP because obviously she should take the Hammy, but still...

[twenty]

Fair, but still none of you have even tried to refute the claim that CLS sucks for PI

Okay, first, let's work with the assumption that finding summer "employment" that's probably unpaid (particularly 2L summer employment) in PI/govt is basically free. At my T1, people spent their 1L and 2L summers at ACLU, DOJ, SEC, and NRDC, despite having zero ability or expectation of getting a full time offer there upon graduation.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... nformation

Scroll to the bottom of this page.

Under 1L summer employment for CO15, 16, and 17, about 55% of 1Ls worked in either government or PI. An additional 15%~ worked in judicial spots.

Under 2L summer employment, for CO17, 88% went over to biglaw, and 16 and 15's numbers, I imagine, are slightly lower because biglaw hiring was rougher those years.

These aren't numbers indicative of a school that doesn't do very well in PI. These numbers are indicative of a student body who (understandably) are gunning very hard for biglaw, even after they've experienced PI/govt during 1L.

[OneHandedEconomist]

OP, if you want to go to Harvard, go. Just realize that you're buying a 400k luxury good. And, in my mind, you can get a similar status boost through a cheaper luxury good, like a Corvette or dope suit.

[jbagelboy]

OP, if you want to go to Harvard, go. Just realize that you're buying a 400k luxury good. And, in my mind, you can get a similar status boost through a cheaper luxury good, like a Corvette or dope suit.

Columbia is a luxury good as well. As is any ivy league or fancy jd. It's all relative

[Alexandros]

.

[Nebby]

Give him a break. He's trying really hard to not look like he lacks any relevant experience to be giving information ITT

Fair, but still none of you have even tried to refute the claim that CLS sucks for PI...again I point to the miserable employment data. Maybe it's moot for OP because obviously she should take the Hammy, but still...

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=262810

[OneHandedEconomist]

OP, if you want to go to Harvard, go. Just realize that you're buying a 400k luxury good. And, in my mind, you can get a similar status boost through a cheaper luxury good, like a Corvette or dope suit.

Columbia is a luxury good as well. As is any ivy league or fancy jd. It's all relative

Yeah, buy it's free. I wouldn't tell someone to turn down a free corvette. I would tell them to turn down an expensive one with a high interest rate.

[RSN]

Give him a break. He's trying really hard to not look like he lacks any relevant experience to be giving information ITT

Fair, but still none of you have even tried to refute the claim that CLS sucks for PI...again I point to the miserable employment data. Maybe it's moot for OP because obviously she should take the Hammy, but still...

[Hildegard15]

I turned down less money than you have at CLS for H and already question the decision less than a year into law school. Take the money.

[Pragmatic Gun]

This thread makes me feel bad about scoring below a 170.

[Veil of Ignorance]

I turned down less money than you have at CLS for H and already question the decision less than a year into law school. Take the money.

This is kinda strange but I was perusing LSN today and remember your profile, because we have very similar numbers. Do you wish you'd taken Columbia, Chicago, or Michigan? I'd love the perspective, because I *hope* to end up in your position.

[Hildegard15]

This is kinda strange but I was perusing LSN today and remember your profile, because we have very similar numbers. Do you wish you'd taken Columbia, Chicago, or Michigan? I'd love the perspective, because I *hope* to end up in your position.

Columbia. Michigan wasn't in my final four. For me it came down to H, Columbia, Chicago, and Cornell. I absolutely loved Columbia when I visited, and I had a ton of ties to Cornell/Ithaca so I ended up eliminating Chicago even though I didn't get to visit.