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Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:16 pm
by Stylnator
Hi everyone, need some advice on going to Minnesota. I have never lived there or even been there but I got accepted and for reasons I'd rather not say (because it is identifying) the option just became a LOT more enticing. My COA is $130k if I lived like an absolute hermit. (My parents may be able to contribute another 30k but I'm not factoring that b/c I haven't decided if I would accept it or not).

Career goals: state PD, will begrudgingly accept local PD if that's the only option. Other PI doesn't really interest me too much, maybe criminal work at a firm?

I'm from Connecticut. I know absolutely nothing about the legal market in MN so if someone can help me learn more about the school and job prospects after I would greatly appreciate it.

163, 3.7 retook once

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:22 pm
by BigZuck
I would retake and/or go to a cheaper school. I'd also work to acquire more geographic focus. This option is too expensive, and it doesn't sound like you have a particularly compelling reason/desire to be in Minnesota long term.

Walk us through why you want to be a state public defender but not a local public defender.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:26 pm
by LawBuckeye12
Do you like freezing your ass off?

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:41 pm
by Stylnator
BigZuck wrote:I would retake and/or go to a cheaper school. I'd also work to acquire more geographic focus. This option is too expensive, and it doesn't sound like you have a particularly compelling reason/desire to be in Minnesota long term.

Walk us through why you want to be a state public defender but not a local public defender.


Most of the states I've looked at have stark $$ differences between the two - but as I said in my original post I know nothing about Minnesota or PD life there. Also, my understanding is the chance to ever even look at a felony case as a local PD is minimal. It's mostly just misdemeanors which is fine for the first couple years but I don't want to be stuck.

You're right about no long term desire to be in MN but I care WAY more about being a PD than where I live. I can make a home anywhere I go. I do kind of want to be in my home state of CT + have full tuition at UConn (total COA: 30k) but PD jobs there are dependent on the rate of retirement/state budget and with the current state of the economy there it's just too much of a gamble.

LawBuckeye12 wrote:Do you like freezing your ass off?


Unless the temperature is 85, I am always freezing my ass off. I have learned to deal with the cold :D

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:41 pm
by floatie
From what I've heard, Minnesota (Minneapolis in particular) is a pretty insular market that is very particular about ties and a desire to work in MN. Given your ties, you're going to be up against your peers not only on the basis of grades but as someone who is from out of state. And this is purely anecdotal, but I went to a reception for MN acceptees and the alumni told me that MN graduates have a tendency to go back to MN after a few years, and there is a growing worry in other markets (like Chicago) that MN graduates won't be sticking around for the long haul. I would imagine that there's a similar concern in the PI world.

That being said, if you're okay with being in Minnesota long-term, you can probably overcome the ties issue and find decent work in Minnesota coming from MN. I would strongly encourage you to negotiate your scholarship - there's a form on the accepted students page - as MN isn't a school you want to go into six-digit debt for.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:42 pm
by guybourdin
Your goals mean you really need to go as low cost as possible. That's a lot of debt for Minnesota imo.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:58 pm
by Stylnator
floatie wrote:From what I've heard, Minnesota (Minneapolis in particular) is a pretty insular market that is very particular about ties and a desire to work in MN. Given your ties, you're going to be up against your peers not only on the basis of grades but as someone who is from out of state. And this is purely anecdotal, but I went to a reception for MN acceptees and the alumni told me that MN graduates have a tendency to go back to MN after a few years, and there is a growing worry in other markets (like Chicago) that MN graduates won't be sticking around for the long haul. I would imagine that there's a similar concern in the PI world.

That being said, if you're okay with being in Minnesota long-term, you can probably overcome the ties issue and find decent work in Minnesota coming from MN. I would strongly encourage you to negotiate your scholarship - there's a form on the accepted students page - as MN isn't a school you want to go into six-digit debt for.


I have an immediate family member moving to MN for work (not legal field), do you think this will help with ties? The email they sent me said negotiations are for students with scholarships at comparable schools - I have a little more money from BC (not a school they're competing with I'm sure) but that's about it so I thought negotiating wouldn't help me? Six figures of debt is terrifying for me as well.

guybourdin wrote:Your goals mean you really need to go as low cost as possible. That's a lot of debt for Minnesota imo.


My low cost options are UConn + Northeastern at full tuition but it doesn't look like either of them will give me a good shot at being a PD.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:05 pm
by UVA2B
guybourdin wrote:Your goals mean you really need to go as low cost as possible. That's a lot of debt for Minnesota imo.


Your first part is TCR, but the second part isn't really unique to Minnesota. If you want to be a state PD, local PD, DA, etc. (read: modest government goals), it is too expensive for pretty much any state flagship (or really T13 since there is much less of a correlation between prestige and hiring at those levels). I would also add that going to the state flagship is always the right call when you want these jobs, because it allows networking, interning, externing, etc. both during the summer and in the academic year.

As for establishing ties for this type of job, it's much more likely to be sufficient to establish ties to the region by going to the state flagship. As long as you hustle while in the school and region and your grades are solid, I don't think any DA or PD is going to doubt your desire to do criminal work in the area. The ties stuff about MN being insular is much more about firm work from my understanding in talking to those going the market.

The only time it's a bad bet to go to a state flagship with these goals is if that state is on an indefinite hiring freeze (pretty sure I read this is the case for UCONN right now). Otherwise, limiting cost and hustling/networking/getting good grades is how this should be approached.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:09 pm
by smaug
You may be able to get the job you want in MN coming out of UMN, but you should think hard about whether that's the life you want.

The insularity of the state runs deeper than legal hiring. It will be hard for you to establish a social circle unless you make good friends in law school who give you an in.

It's very common for folks in MN to stick with their HS friends (or college friends, though less common, regardless of eventual education/career attainment) for life and to not broaden the circle beyond that.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:18 pm
by cavalier1138
Stylnator wrote:Unless the temperature is 85, I am always freezing my ass off. I have learned to deal with the cold :D


Others have dealt with the major issues in a market like MN, but I did want to address this: you have not learned how to deal with upper-Midwestern cold. You've learned to deal with Connecticut. I promise that you don't know what "freezing" means to someone from Minnesota.

That said, climate is a dumb reason to cross an entire area of the country off your list. I think you really need to focus on how willing you are to live in MN for the rest of your life, having never been in the state.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:22 pm
by Stylnator
floatie wrote:I would strongly encourage you to negotiate your scholarship - there's a form on the accepted students page - as MN isn't a school you want to go into six-digit debt for.


Could you point me to this form? I'm looking right now and I can't seem to find it anywhere.

UVA2B wrote:
guybourdin wrote:Your goals mean you really need to go as low cost as possible. That's a lot of debt for Minnesota imo.


Your first part is TCR, but the second part isn't really unique to Minnesota. If you want to be a state PD, local PD, DA, etc. (read: modest government goals), it is too expensive for pretty much any state flagship (or really T13 since there is much less of a correlation between prestige and hiring at those levels). I would also add that going to the state flagship is always the right call when you want these jobs, because it allows networking, interning, externing, etc. both during the summer and in the academic year.

As for establishing ties for this type of job, it's much more likely to be sufficient to establish ties to the region by going to the state flagship. As long as you hustle while in the school and region and your grades are solid, I don't think any DA or PD is going to doubt your desire to do criminal work in the area. The ties stuff about MN being insular is much more about firm work from my understanding in talking to those going the market.

The only time it's a bad bet to go to a state flagship with these goals is if that state is on an indefinite hiring freeze (pretty sure I read this is the case for UCONN right now). Otherwise, limiting cost and hustling/networking/getting good grades is how this should be approached.


Thanks for the advice! My understanding is that PI is less insular than firm work - but I'm sure this varies widely amongst markets.

smaug wrote:You may be able to get the job you want in MN coming out of UMN, but you should think hard about whether that's the life you want.

The insularity of the state runs deeper than legal hiring. It will be hard for you to establish a social circle unless you make good friends in law school who give you an in.

It's very common for folks in MN to stick with their HS friends (or college friends, though less common, regardless of eventual education/career attainment) for life and to not broaden the circle beyond that.


I understand what you're saying but to be honest, my professional goals are a lot more important to me than my social goals right now. If I get a PD job then I will be happy whether or not I have an established social circle - although to be honest I have no doubt in my abilities to make friends, I'm a pretty nice person. I appreciate your concern though!

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:29 pm
by Stylnator
cavalier1138 wrote:
Stylnator wrote:Unless the temperature is 85, I am always freezing my ass off. I have learned to deal with the cold :D


Others have dealt with the major issues in a market like MN, but I did want to address this: you have not learned how to deal with upper-Midwestern cold. You've learned to deal with Connecticut. I promise that you don't know what "freezing" means to someone from Minnesota.

That said, climate is a dumb reason to cross an entire area of the country off your list. I think you really need to focus on how willing you are to live in MN for the rest of your life, having never been in the state.


The average winter temperatures in MN for Jan, Feb, March for the past 3 years have all been pretty much the same as my undergrad institution. I've dealt with absolute freezing + wind chill. Obviously I don't know what it's like having never been there, but I think living in CT + MI has given me at least some reasonable basis for comparison.

And yes I think what's worrying me most is that attending UMN means committing there forever. My family member who is moving there will be gone in 4 years so it's not as big of a deal to them.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:32 pm
by smaug
It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:39 pm
by Stylnator
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:52 pm
by smaug
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:57 pm
by smaug
My answer to the thread is (1) don't go to UMN and (2) don't go to law school this year, if at all.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:00 pm
by Stylnator
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.


And because of that I appreciate your advice as a forewarning. But, you're also still only 1/5.5 million all of whom supposedly will ignore my existence and I just find that a little hard to believe regardless of whom it comes from.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:01 pm
by midwestrocks
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.


This is completely ridiculous. I went to the U from out of state, had zero problems making friends and most out of staters choose to stay in Minneapolis because it's a really nice city. Yes, it's cold but that's not exactly a secret.

Would caution that six figures is a lot for UMN as others have said, but I think overall the job prospects are solid if you aren't biglaw or bust.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:01 pm
by Stylnator
smaug wrote:My answer to the thread is (1) don't go to UMN and (2) don't go to law school this year, if at all.


I can't be a public defender without going to law school.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:05 pm
by smaug
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:My answer to the thread is (1) don't go to UMN and (2) don't go to law school this year, if at all.


I can't be a public defender without going to law school.


I understand that.

I'm just doing my duty as the person who told you not to go to law school.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:07 pm
by smaug
midwestrocks wrote:
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.


This is completely ridiculous. I went to the U from out of state, had zero problems making friends and most out of staters choose to stay in Minneapolis because it's a really nice city. Yes, it's cold but that's not exactly a secret.

Would caution that six figures is a lot for UMN as others have said, but I think overall the job prospects are solid if you aren't biglaw or bust.

I agree that Minneapolis is a wonderful city.

I just generally warn out of state folks that things are a lot insular than you'd expect.

This also isn't just a thing I've made up for laughs.

I'm sure you've heard the old chestnut that a Minnesotan is glad to give you directions... anywhere except his house. Minnesota Ice is real

From the Strib, even: http://m.startribune.com/minnesota-nice ... 266823811/

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:10 pm
by airwrecka
midwestrocks wrote:
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.


This is completely ridiculous. I went to the U from out of state, had zero problems making friends and most out of staters choose to stay in Minneapolis because it's a really nice city. Yes, it's cold but that's not exactly a secret.

Would caution that six figures is a lot for UMN as others have said, but I think overall the job prospects are solid if you aren't biglaw or bust.


+100

I came to the U for undergrad from WI (which is practically the same as MN, but anywho), and probably 10 of my closest friends were from waaay out of state (OR, TX, etc). They (and I) had no problems befriending Minnesotans. Sure, I know plenty of Minnesotans who have stayed friends with their friends from high school, but I don't think I know anyone who isn't interested in making any new friends (or new non-Minnesotan friends). Maybe it's a thing in rural areas but not the Twin Cities. The cold here is bad, yes, but summers are great and really, if you're wearing enough layers it's not that bad. And we have tunnels and skyways to cope. Overall, I love living in the Twin Cities!

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:12 pm
by midwestrocks
smaug wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:It doesn't matter that you're a nice, friendly person.

Minnesotans won't want to talk to you/will (politely!) ignore your existence.

This whole endeavor seems oddly rushed.


I don't think that's a fair statement to say on behalf of every single Minnesotan. And of course this is rushed! Seat deposits are coming up.

What do I know, I'm only a Minnesotan.


This is completely ridiculous. I went to the U from out of state, had zero problems making friends and most out of staters choose to stay in Minneapolis because it's a really nice city. Yes, it's cold but that's not exactly a secret.

Would caution that six figures is a lot for UMN as others have said, but I think overall the job prospects are solid if you aren't biglaw or bust.

I agree that Minneapolis is a wonderful city.

I just generally warn out of state folks that things are a lot insular than you'd expect.

This also isn't just a thing I've made up for laughs.

I'm sure you've heard the old chestnut that a Minnesotan is glad to give you directions... anywhere except his house. Minnesota Ice is real

From the Strib, even: http://m.startribune.com/minnesota-nice ... 266823811/


No, not accusing you of making it up, I've definitely heard the rumors. Just saying that it wasn't my experience at all or that of anyone I knew. It's possible the frigid Scandanavian/Lutheran culture is alive and well in some parts of the state, but not in the Twin Cities imo.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:14 pm
by dbalkaran
I'd visit Minnesota before deciding to uproot your life and start going to law school and working there. I'm from NY and lived in Boston for a while so I'm familiar with the Northeast and Minnesota is a pretty big contrast from our area. I spent a few months there on a consulting project and found it to be too quiet and too slow for me compared to New York and Boston.

Re: Minnesota?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:20 pm
by Stylnator
dbalkaran wrote:I'd visit Minnesota before deciding to uproot your life and start going to law school and working there. I'm from NY and lived in Boston for a while so I'm familiar with the Northeast and Minnesota is a pretty big contrast from our area. I spent a few months there on a consulting project and found it to be too quiet and too slow for me compared to New York and Boston.


I really would like to visit but I won't be able to take the time off work unfortunately. Is Minneapolis/St. Paul like this or just the rest of MN? I would think any city has some sort of bustling atmosphere.