Minnesota?

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trebekismyhero
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby trebekismyhero » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:27 pm

Stylnator wrote:
dbalkaran wrote:I'd visit Minnesota before deciding to uproot your life and start going to law school and working there. I'm from NY and lived in Boston for a while so I'm familiar with the Northeast and Minnesota is a pretty big contrast from our area. I spent a few months there on a consulting project and found it to be too quiet and too slow for me compared to New York and Boston.


I really would like to visit but I won't be able to take the time off work unfortunately. Is Minneapolis/St. Paul like this or just the rest of MN? I would think any city has some sort of bustling atmosphere.


You definitely shouldn't go to Minnesota without visiting.

I have lived in Minneapolis and the East Coast. I think Minneapolis is a great area and has some bustling areas like Uptown and Warehouse district, but it is still very different from NYC/DC.

As far as friendliness of people, I think in Minneapolis people are very friendly, but people in MN and MPLS settle down and have families a lot earlier in life than in Chicago and East Coast. I think that leads to people sticking with HS and college friends more.

But this is all moot. $130k is still too expensive for Minnesota and if you want to be a PD you should go to school somewhere that you know you want to live. So retake and reapply if this is your best option right now

BigZuck
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:30 pm

Not even visiting a place before committing to live/work there long term is just bonkers, IMO.

I'm starting to jump aboard the "Don't go to law school" train.

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:34 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
dbalkaran wrote:I'd visit Minnesota before deciding to uproot your life and start going to law school and working there. I'm from NY and lived in Boston for a while so I'm familiar with the Northeast and Minnesota is a pretty big contrast from our area. I spent a few months there on a consulting project and found it to be too quiet and too slow for me compared to New York and Boston.


I really would like to visit but I won't be able to take the time off work unfortunately. Is Minneapolis/St. Paul like this or just the rest of MN? I would think any city has some sort of bustling atmosphere.


You definitely shouldn't go to Minnesota without visiting.

I have lived in Minneapolis and the East Coast. I think Minneapolis is a great area and has some bustling areas like Uptown and Warehouse district, but it is still very different from NYC/DC.

As far as friendliness of people, I think in Minneapolis people are very friendly, but people in MN and MPLS settle down and have families a lot earlier in life than in Chicago and East Coast. I think that leads to people sticking with HS and college friends more.

But this is all moot. $130k is still too expensive for Minnesota and if you want to be a PD you should go to school somewhere that you know you want to live. So retake and reapply if this is your best option right now


I'm going to try to get more from them, I really really don't want to attend there with the current COA. But I don't know if I'd attend at all when UConn has given me such a good price anyways. I just wanted some more information about MN + PD life there really.

BigZuck wrote:Not even visiting a place before committing to live/work there long term is just bonkers, IMO.

I'm starting to jump aboard the "Don't go to law school" train.


By all means, jump.

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smaug
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:26 pm

Why do you need to go this year and make a serious, life altering decision that will impact decades of your life, in such a compressed timeframe?

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:31 pm

smaug wrote:Why do you need to go this year and make a serious, life altering decision that will impact decades of your life, in such a compressed timeframe?


I never said I absolutely needed to go to law school this year. And aren't most law school decisions made in a compressed timeframe? Usually only 3-4 months maximum before deposits are due (if you're lucky and they get back to you somewhat quickly).

If you look at my original post I'm just looking for more information on Minnesota + PD market specifically.

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smaug
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:33 pm

Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:Why do you need to go this year and make a serious, life altering decision that will impact decades of your life, in such a compressed timeframe?


I never said I absolutely needed to go to law school this year. And aren't most law school decisions made in a compressed timeframe? Usually only 3-4 months maximum before deposits are due (if you're lucky and they get back to you somewhat quickly).

If you look at my original post I'm just looking for more information on Minnesota + PD market specifically.

If you're not in a rush, maybe visit the state and decide if you want to go next year.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby CaptainLeela » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:30 pm

Have you done PD/client facing work before?

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dbalkaran
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby dbalkaran » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:32 pm

smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:Why do you need to go this year and make a serious, life altering decision that will impact decades of your life, in such a compressed timeframe?


I never said I absolutely needed to go to law school this year. And aren't most law school decisions made in a compressed timeframe? Usually only 3-4 months maximum before deposits are due (if you're lucky and they get back to you somewhat quickly).

If you look at my original post I'm just looking for more information on Minnesota + PD market specifically.

If you're not in a rush, maybe visit the state and decide if you want to go next year.


+1

If you end up hating Minnesota it's not going to be easy to transfer either.

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:34 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:Have you done PD/client facing work before?


No PD work specifically. I did once intern at a court house that got me a lot of exposure into the day to day life of a PD that really got me interested in it, but I haven't ever worked in their actual office. My background in PI has been mostly NGO based refugee work.

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:40 pm

dbalkaran wrote:
smaug wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
smaug wrote:Why do you need to go this year and make a serious, life altering decision that will impact decades of your life, in such a compressed timeframe?


I never said I absolutely needed to go to law school this year. And aren't most law school decisions made in a compressed timeframe? Usually only 3-4 months maximum before deposits are due (if you're lucky and they get back to you somewhat quickly).

If you look at my original post I'm just looking for more information on Minnesota + PD market specifically.

If you're not in a rush, maybe visit the state and decide if you want to go next year.


+1

If you end up hating Minnesota it's not going to be easy to transfer either.


I can't see myself hating a place enough to actually want to transfer. For me, school is the most important thing not my geographical location.

MinnesotaLawQs
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby MinnesotaLawQs » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:29 am

I think the idea that Minnesota had an "insular" legal market is VASTLY overstated. I have less familiarity with the PD world, but law firms are more than happy to hire transplants whether as entry-levels or laterals. The idea that you can't get hired without Minnesota ties is simply not true.

I think the misconception may come from the fact that Minnesotan law firms (1) generally don't take the "churn and burn" approach of hiring associates with the intention to keep them only for a few years, and so are more interested in your long term FUTURE commitment (not past ties) to the firm and its community than firms in some other markets might be and (2) for a variety of reasons, Minnesota is not a "market of choice" for young ambitious lawyers, and so firms sometimes worry that applicants with no apparent ties might be seeking a job for a wrong reason (e.g. They have some hidden defect that prevented them from getting a job anywhere else; they failed to be successful at firms elsewhere and wrongly think the job is easier here; they wrongly think Minnesota firms have a better "lifestyle" where they can work less hard than at comparable firms elsewhere; they are just looking for a short-term opportunity to tide them over until they can get the job they really want; etc.).

If you can give the impression that you are interested in being a long-term part of a Minnesota firm, that you have the capacity to succeed anywhere, and that you are applying to that firm with eyes wide open and for the right reasons, for the most part no one will care about your past ties to the state.

As for social insularity... there is a real phenomenon that makes it harder for some transplants to integrate, but it is grossly overstated by Smaug. A few thoughts:
- Minnesotans tend to marry and have kids younger than those in the coasts, so there is a relatively smaller and tamer scene of single 30-somethings hanging out all the time.
- When transplants "make friends" in places like NYC and D.C., they typically are not making friends with the natives. They are making friends with other transplants. There are fewer and more distributed transplants in Minnesota than in those places.
- Part of the Minnesotan culture is a self-consciousness and humility. Some people won't dare presume that you would care to be friends with them. That means transplants need to be a little more proactive taking friendships to the next level.
- Minnesotans are, as a baseline, very friendly. This confuses some transplants who think they have "icy friends" rather than "friendly strangers." You get used to this but have to be prepared for it.
- People who come here for law school avoid a lot of these issues, since the law school environment remedies a lot of the above issues that affect people who just move randomly. I also think those that come in knowing the background can integrate quite well.

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:52 am

MinnesotaLawQs wrote:I think the idea that Minnesota had an "insular" legal market is VASTLY overstated. I have less familiarity with the PD world, but law firms are more than happy to hire transplants whether as entry-levels or laterals. The idea that you can't get hired without Minnesota ties is simply not true.

I think the misconception may come from the fact that Minnesotan law firms (1) generally don't take the "churn and burn" approach of hiring associates with the intention to keep them only for a few years, and so are more interested in your long term FUTURE commitment (not past ties) to the firm and its community than firms in some other markets might be and (2) for a variety of reasons, Minnesota is not a "market of choice" for young ambitious lawyers, and so firms sometimes worry that applicants with no apparent ties might be seeking a job for a wrong reason (e.g. They have some hidden defect that prevented them from getting a job anywhere else; they failed to be successful at firms elsewhere and wrongly think the job is easier here; they wrongly think Minnesota firms have a better "lifestyle" where they can work less hard than at comparable firms elsewhere; they are just looking for a short-term opportunity to tide them over until they can get the job they really want; etc.).

If you can give the impression that you are interested in being a long-term part of a Minnesota firm, that you have the capacity to succeed anywhere, and that you are applying to that firm with eyes wide open and for the right reasons, for the most part no one will care about your past ties to the state.

As for social insularity... there is a real phenomenon that makes it harder for some transplants to integrate, but it is grossly overstated by Smaug. A few thoughts:
- Minnesotans tend to marry and have kids younger than those in the coasts, so there is a relatively smaller and tamer scene of single 30-somethings hanging out all the time.
- When transplants "make friends" in places like NYC and D.C., they typically are not making friends with the natives. They are making friends with other transplants. There are fewer and more distributed transplants in Minnesota than in those places.
- Part of the Minnesotan culture is a self-consciousness and humility. Some people won't dare presume that you would care to be friends with them. That means transplants need to be a little more proactive taking friendships to the next level.
- Minnesotans are, as a baseline, very friendly. This confuses some transplants who think they have "icy friends" rather than "friendly strangers." You get used to this but have to be prepared for it.
- People who come here for law school avoid a lot of these issues, since the law school environment remedies a lot of the above issues that affect people who just move randomly. I also think those that come in knowing the background can integrate quite well.



Wow thanks for all the information! It looks like I just have to figure out whether I'd want Minnesota long term and that's very hard for me to decide right now. My goal is to eventually be a federal defender after about 3-5 years of experience at the state level and I would go anywhere for FPD so I don't know if I can commit myself long term to any one place after graduating law school. Also good to know about the social aspect, not going to be my ultimate factor when it comes to choosing schools obviously but still helpful to know. And just to ask, what is a reasonable amount of debt to take out for UMN?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:48 am

Do you speak Spanish?

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:53 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do you speak Spanish?


No, but I am in the process of learning!

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby CaptainLeela » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:48 pm

Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:Have you done PD/client facing work before?


No PD work specifically. I did once intern at a court house that got me a lot of exposure into the day to day life of a PD that really got me interested in it, but I haven't ever worked in their actual office. My background in PI has been mostly NGO based refugee work.

This is too much debt to take on presumably under the assumption that it will be forgiven through PSLF/whatever program UMN has. Ten years is a long time to be a PD and making a 130k bet you won't burn out when you've never done this kind of work is really high risk.

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:14 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:Have you done PD/client facing work before?


No PD work specifically. I did once intern at a court house that got me a lot of exposure into the day to day life of a PD that really got me interested in it, but I haven't ever worked in their actual office. My background in PI has been mostly NGO based refugee work.

This is too much debt to take on presumably under the assumption that it will be forgiven through PSLF/whatever program UMN has. Ten years is a long time to be a PD and making a 130k bet you won't burn out when you've never done this kind of work is really high risk.


I will not attend under the current price. It's way too much. Minnesota has an LRAP (state funded not the school itself) which assists with monthly payments for 55k and under salaries. It seems more reliable than PSLF but I don't want to attend ANY school relying on PSLF. I might be able to get more family assistance once I graduate but that's shaky. As far as burning out, I can't predict one way or another whether that will happen and I understand why it's a concern but to me it doesn't carry enough weight to change my initial career plans because I know this is what I want to do.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby CaptainLeela » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:26 pm

Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:Have you done PD/client facing work before?


No PD work specifically. I did once intern at a court house that got me a lot of exposure into the day to day life of a PD that really got me interested in it, but I haven't ever worked in their actual office. My background in PI has been mostly NGO based refugee work.

This is too much debt to take on presumably under the assumption that it will be forgiven through PSLF/whatever program UMN has. Ten years is a long time to be a PD and making a 130k bet you won't burn out when you've never done this kind of work is really high risk.


I will not attend under the current price. It's way too much. Minnesota has an LRAP (state funded not the school itself) which assists with monthly payments for 55k and under salaries. It seems more reliable than PSLF but I don't want to attend ANY school relying on PSLF. I might be able to get more family assistance once I graduate but that's shaky. As far as burning out, I can't predict one way or another whether that will happen and I understand why it's a concern but to me it doesn't carry enough weight to change my initial career plans because I know this is what I want to do.

I'm not suggesting you should change your plan of being a PD at all. I think you should plan to have pay a large portion of your COA back and consider the cost according, particularly in light of a 55k ceiling.

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zot1
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby zot1 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:36 pm

Stylnator wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do you speak Spanish?


No, but I am in the process of learning!


En serio?

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:58 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:Have you done PD/client facing work before?


No PD work specifically. I did once intern at a court house that got me a lot of exposure into the day to day life of a PD that really got me interested in it, but I haven't ever worked in their actual office. My background in PI has been mostly NGO based refugee work.

This is too much debt to take on presumably under the assumption that it will be forgiven through PSLF/whatever program UMN has. Ten years is a long time to be a PD and making a 130k bet you won't burn out when you've never done this kind of work is really high risk.


I will not attend under the current price. It's way too much. Minnesota has an LRAP (state funded not the school itself) which assists with monthly payments for 55k and under salaries. It seems more reliable than PSLF but I don't want to attend ANY school relying on PSLF. I might be able to get more family assistance once I graduate but that's shaky. As far as burning out, I can't predict one way or another whether that will happen and I understand why it's a concern but to me it doesn't carry enough weight to change my initial career plans because I know this is what I want to do.

I'm not suggesting you should change your plan of being a PD at all. I think you should plan to have pay a large portion of your COA back and consider the cost according, particularly in light of a 55k ceiling.


If I were to ever take out that much (which I would not) then I would plan on paying all of it back plus interest using IBR. I'm not sure what other options exist out there, is there someone/thing who would pay off my loans for me? (Aside from PSLF obviously because that's shaky).

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Stylnator
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Stylnator » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:26 am

zot1 wrote:
Stylnator wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do you speak Spanish?


No, but I am in the process of learning!


En serio?


yes really but it's going to be difficult to get to a level of working profiency

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:57 pm

If you love the cold do it! I would if i wanted MN.

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rush4334
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby rush4334 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:28 pm

I came to UMN for undergrad from out of state (Midwest) and ended up staying in Minneapolis after graduation and will be attending UMN for law school this fall. I never visited the city beforehand but ended up loving it so much I wanted to stay. Similarly, I've had numerous friends come here for undergrad from much farther away states and ended up staying - from what I've seen, it happened more than not.

130k is a lot of debt to take on for any law school, but don't worry about the location or the cold, even - it's a vastly overstated negative to this city. I've been working in the legal field in Minneapolis for three years now and it's not hard to see the school really does dominates most quality legal job in Minneapolis. If I knew my exact career goals like you do, and absolutely had to choose between a full ride at St Thomas or William Mitchell or 130k for UMN, I would take UMN every time. So if you want this city, then you're just going to need to weigh the cost-benefit; there's no right answer. PM me if you have questions.

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CatherineZetaScarn1
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Re: Minnesota?

Postby CatherineZetaScarn1 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:57 pm

I will be attending ASW this weekend if you think a perspective from someone in a similar situation will help you! I'm from the south and interested in PI work as well. I like the support system UMN seems to have regarding PI but I am worried about going some place so different. I would be happy to share if I learn anything or if there is anything in particular you'd like me tell you about!




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