QU v Cardozo(Ferrisjso's decision) Forum

[beforethelaw]

Good luck, Ferris! Wish you'd hold off on attending obviously, but if you do go then I hope you work hard and get some lucky breaks!

[cavalier1138]

It's not the world's most idiotic decision. A lot of people pay a lot of money to go to Connecticut Law and schools like that every year. I get it's not some totally kickass, awesome idea, but people survive, things work out for people... even if they don't get one of those totally rad LT/FT Employment Jobs 9 months after graduation or whatever the ABA Data supplies. I think this site could benefit from toning down the hyperbole. A lot of the stuff that was true when we were balls deep in the recession isn't really the case right now. The "Law Grad Working Retail" two years after graduation stuff probably isn't as common as people think. It all comes down to just helping people get informed and maximize their odds of achieving their goals... but sometimes it feels like elitist posturing from a lot of people that goes a bit overboard.

Nah, it's pretty damn close. The fact that a lot of people make the same stupid decision doesn't make it any less stupid. A long-term/full-time legal job after law school should not be a "totally rad" option; it should literally be the default outcome for anyone going to the school. It's a massive failing of that school if they can't provide it for their students. It's also a failing on the part of the students if they fail to do their due diligence and go into serious amounts of debt for no return.

And while people do, in fact, survive, things do not always work out. That mantra is the last refuge of the truly ignorant and the desperate. Things definitely don't work out for lots of people a lot of the time. But thanks to humans being a resilient lot, most people learn how to make do with what they have, even though we can objectively look at a specific situation and say that things didn't go well for that person. I get that you're super-optimistic about nearly half the class at UConn not having jobs as lawyers after getting their JD. I don't think that anyone should be that sanguine, especially because this isn't just residual paranoia from the recession. There are still too many graduates for the job market, and the salaries available to UConn graduates cannot possibly pay off six figures of debt in ten years. Survival is not the optimal outcome from any law school.

It's not "elitist posturing" to want people to be in a position to pursue their actual career goals and not be stuck in an endless debt sinkhole. It's common decency.

[beforethelaw]

It's a massive failing of that school if they can't provide it for their students.

Would only add that I don't think it's about individual schools as a much as a complete failure of the market to behave anywhere resembling optimally. Individual schools are rational actors doing their best. From their perspective, shutting down would be failure. But this would improve the market. Government should be more proactive about this and other educational scams.

[star fox]

I'm not being super-optimistic about anything. I was being sarcastic about the super-rad comment. Once people are on the other end they may decide that working some $45K law job isn't better than working some other $45K non-law job that their law degree may have helped them get or may have been irrelevant in them getting. It's not like the top 60 % grade wise is being hired into law jobs and the rest are the ones doomed from that point on. There are a lot of other factors at play that I think people here who overwhelmingly go to BigLaw Feeders don't have a great grasp on. The balls deep in recession is pretty relevant when you look at a school like UConn's under-employment score. That's what you really want to avoid since that means you're essentially not employed. That has fallen pretty dramatically, they got more people working in BigLaw firms then they do in that boat. So there's 60 % that are in lawyer jobs, 10 % under-employed, and 30 % in-between. Yeah that 30 % probably isn't raking in the FAT STACKS in their JD Advantage "Business" jobs (where the bulk of those people seem to be) but it's probably not as RUINOUS as people seem to be insisting on it being. Recall that probably a lot of the 100 or so people in the Part Time Program are going to fall in this category since they actually have jobs before they go to law school. And yeah if you're earning a $45K salary and are a person who took out $175K in debt you aren't going to pay back that debt in 10 years, that'd be crazy. You're going to be taking advantage of borrower friendly government payback programs such as PAYE. I can state all that and still agree that going to law school probably wasn't a good decision for a lot of folks. It may end up being a terrible decision for me to have gone to law school at one of those biglaw feeders if I realize a month into my job that i hate being a lawyer and should have pursued my (fake) passion of writing poetry.

[Johann]

Why is this thread 17 pages? Is it worth reading or is it just Ferrisjo needing (and receiving) attention?

A lot of repeated arguments. It is so long because every time there is a consensus a new fact/issue pops up.

If everyone wants im willing to just drop thread.

I'm still following. It's a process and important for you to think through everyday. I think you should keep it up. Honestly, most choosing threads should be closer to this length than the standard 1 page or whatever - should be constant s holly negotiations, should be constant reevaluation, should be school visits and there should be discussion.

[Johann]

Against the odds that this is real.

If possible speak to Dean DeMeola at UConn Law about your concerns. I don't think there is a nicer person on the planet.

Maybe I will thank you. This thread has went on rather long and while I appreciate people might care enough about me for my thread to generate over 400 comments, I understand that this probably is too much lol. For those who gave productive advice, I feel like you have given me enough info to make an informed decision(even if it is objectively wrong), thank you! While I could post updates and stuff, I already think I have a good idea of what TLS's responses to these updates would be (whether it be more scholly money or getting off a WL) and continuing the thread seems to serve little other purpose than to give the trolls and haters a venue and excuse to trash me. I will not be updating the thread anymore and aside from the political threads which are pretty fun, I will probably rarely post at all(unless there's a choices thread where someone is really being misled/bullied). Thanks again to the people who genuinely care!

Just got here so I respect your decision. Not trying to make you put yourself out here. Feel free to pm me and talk anything out (law school careers, paying down debt, taking a year off etc).

[Johann]

It's not the world's most idiotic decision. A lot of people pay a lot of money to go to Connecticut Law and schools like that every year. I get it's not some totally kickass, awesome idea, but people survive, things work out for people... even if they don't get one of those totally rad LT/FT Employment Jobs 9 months after graduation or whatever the ABA Data supplies. I think this site could benefit from toning down the hyperbole. A lot of the stuff that was true when we were balls deep in the recession isn't really the case right now. The "Law Grad Working Retail" two years after graduation stuff probably isn't as common as people think. It all comes down to just helping people get informed and maximize their odds of achieving their goals... but sometimes it feels like elitist posturing from a lot of people that goes a bit overboard.

Nah, it's pretty damn close. The fact that a lot of people make the same stupid decision doesn't make it any less stupid. A long-term/full-time legal job after law school should not be a "totally rad" option; it should literally be the default outcome for anyone going to the school. It's a massive failing of that school if they can't provide it for their students. It's also a failing on the part of the students if they fail to do their due diligence and go into serious amounts of debt for no return.

And while people do, in fact, survive, things do not always work out. That mantra is the last refuge of the truly ignorant and the desperate. Things definitely don't work out for lots of people a lot of the time. But thanks to humans being a resilient lot, most people learn how to make do with what they have, even though we can objectively look at a specific situation and say that things didn't go well for that person. I get that you're super-optimistic about nearly half the class at UConn not having jobs as lawyers after getting their JD. I don't think that anyone should be that sanguine, especially because this isn't just residual paranoia from the recession. There are still too many graduates for the job market, and the salaries available to UConn graduates cannot possibly pay off six figures of debt in ten years. Survival is not the optimal outcome from any law school.

It's not "elitist posturing" to want people to be in a position to pursue their actual career goals and not be stuck in an endless debt sinkhole. It's common decency.

The only lawyer I know working in clothing industry is a bespoke tailor who outfits tens of household name athletes.

You definitely overestimate the doom and gloom. People don't like law and leave 180k legal jobs for 100k salaries everyday. Is it really that hard to understand how someone working in law making 45k would be like yeah fuck this shit I'm gonna go get a pay raise and work that easy job for 60k. I'm not saying these outcomes are desirable for law school because its debt and a waste of 3 years but the biggest failing at this point is still students not understanding what being a lawyer entails and jumping into law school for a fear of the unknown.

You keep saying that 40% nonemployed lawyers is a big deal but what about the fact that 25% of T14 bar passers will leave the law within 5 years as well? Why isn't that a failure?

[A. Nony Mouse]

People who have jobs choosing to go do something else is very different - economically and emotionally - from not being able to find a job, though.

[cavalier1138]

People who have jobs choosing to go do something else is very different - economically and emotionally - from not being able to find a job, though.

^This.

You can't compare the phenomenon of people voluntarily leaving the law to people never being able to really get started. You also can't really compare it to people who want to go into a totally different field and think that a mediocre-to-terrible law school is the best way to achieve that goal.

The 25% of T14 bar passers who leave the law (I'm just going to take your word for it, because that sounds accurate) are likely people who never really wanted to be lawyers in the first place, precisely like the OP. Going to law school was a mistake for them, but at the very least, they were able to pay off their loans and didn't live with six figures of debt hovering over them for the next few decades.

[Ferrisjso]

I know I said im killing this thread but today there was a serious development that Im honestly not sure what your reactions would be. QU just took the stips off my scholarship and im now seriously considering them. How much more do you guys think UCONN is worth? Id be paying living expenses at QU plus around 3k a year in tuition. In my head that comes out to about 60k. I guess just try to be civil.

[dbalkaran]

I know I said im killing this thread but today there was a serious development that Im honestly not sure what your reactions would be. QU just took the stips off my scholarship and im now seriously considering them. How much more do you guys think UCONN is worth? Id be paying living expenses at QU plus around 3k a year in tuition. In my head that comes out to about 60k. I guess just try to be civil.

If you aren't going to wait then UConn all the way. It's a much better law school.

[BigZuck]

I would run (don't walk!) far far away from a school as bad as Quinnipiac. It needs to be shut down, not seriously considered as an option for someone who wants to attend law school.

[Dcc617]

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/quinnipiac/

Coin flip at being a lawyer at all.

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Nope, doesn't change anything.

[Dcc617]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

[Rigo]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

Shhh. Don't suppress content.

[Ferrisjso]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

There is no other forum like it that has as many people. If i need to mine through the advice to find the people i take seriously so be it, its still alot better than the cheerleading gang of people who know nothing about law school.

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

There is no other forum like it that has as many people. If i need to mine through the advice to find the people i take seriously so be it, its still alot better than the cheerleading gang of people who know nothing about law school.

But this is you...

[Ferrisjso]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

There is no other forum like it that has as many people. If i need to mine through the advice to find the people i take seriously so be it, its still alot better than the cheerleading gang of people who know nothing about law school.

But this is you...

There's a difference between me and the people who think going to any law school and taking out debt guarantees six figures(there are probably more of these people than there are actual lawyers). My optimism is just meant to be a counterweight to the negativity on here, I do not give nor will I ever give the advice the average person gives on LS.

[shadowfax]

There are significant numbers of people working in the Office of the States Attorneys, public defenders office, and as judges in CT who went to Q. Also lots of private and small firm attorneys. Local law is well... local. There are no jobs available working for the State and not likely to be in the future so that base of alum will not help you if you go to Q.

UConn is a much better choice between the two.

[Ferrisjso]

There are significant numbers of people working in the Office of the States Attorneys, public defenders office, and as judges in CT who went to Q. Also lots of private and small firm attorneys. Local law is well... local. There are no jobs available working for the State and not likely to be in the future so that base of alum will not help you if you go to Q.

UConn is a much better choice between the two.

Would you say it's worth more than twice as much money? Clearly I know UCONN is the better school but how much better is the question I'm faced with.

[guynourmin]

Ferris, not sure if you've answered this before: are you okay with never practicing law? Like, you think you'll enjoy law school, you want out of your current environment that much, you don't think a $500/mo student loan payment is particularly burdensome, and you think you'll get some serious amount of satisfaction from having a JD next to your name even if you never use it?

and I'm not saying you'll never practice. I'm just saying, if the odds are about 50/50, are you okay with the other side?

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Also, why keep asking questions on this forum? You're not listening. You obviously know better than anyone else. You're going to do what your 22 year old heart demands. So why even bother with TLS?

There is no other forum like it that has as many people. If i need to mine through the advice to find the people i take seriously so be it, its still alot better than the cheerleading gang of people who know nothing about law school.

But this is you...

There's a difference between me and the people who think going to any law school and taking out debt guarantees six figures(there are probably more of these people than there are actual lawyers). My optimism is just meant to be a counterweight to the negativity on here, I do not give nor will I ever give the advice the average person gives on LS.

That's cheerleading. When a person thinks he/she is stuck between two horrible choices, actively encouraging the person to select one of the horrible choice is the epitome of being a "part of the cheerleading gang of people who know nothing about law school."

You clearly don't seem to accept/comprehend common sensical advice, so I'm sure graduating top 50% at Quinnipiac will be a cakewalk for you. Best of luck!

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Ferris, not sure if you've answered this before: are you okay with never practicing law? Like, you think you'll enjoy law school, you want out of your current environment that much, you don't think a $500/mo student loan payment is particularly burdensome, and you think you'll get some serious amount of satisfaction from having a JD next to your name even if you never use it?

and I'm not saying you'll never practice. I'm just saying, if the odds are about 50/50, are you okay with the other side?

Yes, he's okay with not practicing law. As long as he doesn't have to learn how to drive/escape from 4 Privet Drive and having to live with the aweful Dursley's, life will be fine and dandy!

[guynourmin]

Ferris, not sure if you've answered this before: are you okay with never practicing law? Like, you think you'll enjoy law school, you want out of your current environment that much, you don't think a $500/mo student loan payment is particularly burdensome, and you think you'll get some serious amount of satisfaction from having a JD next to your name even if you never use it?

and I'm not saying you'll never practice. I'm just saying, if the odds are about 50/50, are you okay with the other side?

Yes, he's okay with not practicing law. As long as he doesn't have to learn how to drive/escape from 4 Privet Drive and having to live with the aweful Dursley's, life will be fine and dandy!

Worked out for Harry