UPenn vs. Temple Forum

[csch1017]

Hi, I am trying to decide between UPenn and Temple.

I received a full-ride to Temple and am hoping to receive at least some need-based financial aid from Penn.

I have a 4.0 GPA, and got a 160 on the LSAT.
(not retaking the LSAT)

I will be living with my parents, so cost-of-living is not an issue for me.

Not really sure what kind of law I want to practice, but am leaning towards criminal.
I probably will remain in the PA area, but that isn't certain.

So yeah, opinions would be appreciated!

[Lawschool305]

With a 4.0 GPA you should be able to score higher than a 160. Please Retake. I would do anything to go back and have a 4.0.

I do not know enough about Temple or the Philly market to comment on your prospects besides that fact that it would be a shame to waste your GPA. 4.0 170 is probably a named scholarship to Penn or at least a very good one

[cavalier1138]

I probably will remain in the PA area, but that isn't certain.

Well, if you go to Temple, it is certain. So I hope you're comfortable having that decision made for you.

Need-based aid is extremely rare, and Penn is known for being relatively stingy with aid in the first place. I would not count on anything from Penn, and you shouldn't go there at sticker. Since you apparently made the extremely questionable decision of only looking at PA schools, that puts you in a bit of a conundrum.

If you're committed to staying in PA (doesn't sound like you are), then Temple for free is fine. Just know that you're likely eliminating any realistic chance of biglaw or federal clerkship. You also have a not-insignificant chance of not being employed as a lawyer upon graduating. You seem pretty well aware that retaking the LSAT would open up a world of options for you, but you also seem pretty set on not giving yourself those options. So have at it.

[CanadianWolf]

Since you have already decided to not retake the LSAT, then Temple with a full tuition scholarship is the better option for one aiming at a career in criminal law.

[UVA2B]

Since you have already decided to not retake the LSAT, then Temple with a full tuition scholarship is the better option for one aiming at a career in criminal law.

That glossy 4.0 is hard to ignore for most of us, but if you're from Philly, want to be a PD or local prosecutor in Philly, and will be living at home throughout school, Temple on a full ride (assuming no stips on that scholarship, and I'm unfamiliar with that aspect) is an objectively good outcome. If talking AUSA or white collar defense, obviously it's a whole other ball game and retake is the only option.

Saying criminal law is obviously too vague for this distinction, and it surely matters, but this could be one of those rare circumstances where the options don't appreciably improve for what the OP wants to do.

[CanadianWolf]

Also depends upon whether OP wants to become a prosecutor or a defense attorney. For criminal defense, Temple works as Federal Public Defenders are not drawn/recruited from prestigious law schools, but from having at least 5 years experience as a public defender; but it is a different story for those targeting work as a prosecutor with the Federal government.

P.S. Retake the LSAT as even a handful of additional points should greatly enhance your options.

[csch1017]

Hi, I am trying to decide between UPenn and Temple.

I received a full-ride to Temple and am hoping to receive at least some need-based financial aid from Penn.

I have a 4.0 GPA, and got a 160 on the LSAT.
(not retaking the LSAT)

I will be living with my parents, so cost-of-living is not an issue for me.

Not really sure what kind of law I want to practice, but am leaning towards criminal.
I probably will remain in the PA area, but that isn't certain.

So yeah, opinions would be appreciated!

[BigZuck]

Criminal law is too vague for people to give thoughts

What does your ideal career trajectory look like

[UVA2B]

Since you have already decided to not retake the LSAT, then Temple with a full tuition scholarship is the better option for one aiming at a career in criminal law.

That glossy 4.0 is hard to ignore for most of us, but if you're from Philly, want to be a PD or local prosecutor in Philly, and will be living at home throughout school, Temple on a full ride (assuming no stips on that scholarship, and I'm unfamiliar with that aspect) is an objectively good outcome. If talking AUSA or white collar defense, obviously it's a whole other ball game and retake is the only option.

Saying criminal law is obviously too vague for this distinction, and it surely matters, but this could be one of those rare circumstances where the options don't appreciably improve for what the OP wants to do.

Since we're quoting ourselves, is this not an opinion you're looking for? If local PD or prosecutor, Temple is great. If you want AUSA or that level of criminal law (see also SEC, DOJ, etc.), Penn is the choice here, but you should retake to minimize cost.

[Ronan]

You're dumb if you limit your 4.0 gpa with a 160 lsat. Really, really bad life decision. Awful.

But I digress. Temple for free if you're downright certain you want to practice criminal law in PA is not a bad life decision.

But wait, you're not downright certain you want to do criminal law or practice in PA.

So retake.

[csch1017]

[quote="Ronan"]You're dumb if you limit your 4.0 gpa with a 160 lsat. Really, really bad life decision. Awful.

Just because I have a 4.0 gpa does not mean I'm a super genius who is going to score a much higher score on the LSAT. I'm proud of my 160, considering that was above my prep test average. I'm asking for advice on the schools, not your insults directed towards my life decisions.

Penn was a reach school for me. I have gotten 5 full rides from Temple, Villanova, Drexel, Catholic, and Penn State. I think Temple is the best among those considering I want to stay in the Philly area and I like their trial advocacy program. But I'm trying to figure out if I should seriously consider Penn, because I know I would have a wider range of job opportunities.

[poptart123]

Penn... with a better LSAT. You could have great money from Penn. You're GPA is great. You are obviously very smart. Don't limit yourself.

[BigZuck]

Criminal law is too vague for people to give thoughts

What does your ideal career trajectory look like

[waldorf]

I assume you're not retaking because you're set on applying this cycle. Why not retake in June? You literally have nothing to lose and even a few points could get you some $$ at Penn. And if you do worse, who cares? You're already in.

I'd take Penn since you don't have COL loans and aren't 100% sure you want to stay in PA.

[csch1017]

I should clarify the reason I don't want to retake. I'm not the best at standardized tests, so I studied very hard and never expected to score above a 157. I got lucky with the real test in September and got a 160. I 100% understand why people are telling me to retake with a 4.0 gpa, realistically though, I don't see my score going up much.

With that being said, my main question should be, is Penn worth the debt, even if I'm not 100% certain what type of law I want to study?

[BigZuck]

You don't know what you want to do so don't go to law school.

When you have an idea of what you want to do, come back and we can start talking law school. Right now it's just not in the cards for you.

[Ronan]

You don't do well on standardized tests and yet you're willing to hedge your bets on an academic program where your final grade is wholly dependent on how you do on a final exam and its based on a curve? Good luck to you.

Here's your answer: Don't go to Penn at sticker.

[Ronan]

You're dumb if you limit your 4.0 gpa with a 160 lsat. Really, really bad life decision. Awful.

Just because I have a 4.0 gpa does not mean I'm a super genius who is going to score a much higher score on the LSAT. I'm proud of my 160, considering that was above my prep test average. I'm asking for advice on the schools, not your insults directed towards my life decisions.

Penn was a reach school for me. I have gotten 5 full rides from Temple, Villanova, Drexel, Catholic, and Penn State. I think Temple is the best among those considering I want to stay in the Philly area and I like their trial advocacy program. But I'm trying to figure out if I should seriously consider Penn, because I know I would have a wider range of job opportunities.

Skipping out on a 4.0 is indicative that you're not a genius. For what it's worth, you didn't receive your full rides because of your 160 lsat.

I'll stand by my "don't go to Penn at sticker" suggestion but the fact that you are considering Penn because you "would have a wider range of job opportunities" demonstrates that you're not 100% sure of what you want to do with a JD. And I think Temple for free is a fine choice if you are 100% sure that you want to practice criminal law in PA.

[Npret]

I should clarify the reason I don't want to retake. I'm not the best at standardized tests, so I studied very hard and never expected to score above a 157. I got lucky with the real test in September and got a 160. I 100% understand why people are telling me to retake with a 4.0 gpa, realistically though, I don't see my score going up much.

With that being said, my main question should be, is Penn worth the debt, even if I'm not 100% certain what type of law I want to study?

How did you study?

[saf18hornet]

You're dumb if you limit your 4.0 gpa with a 160 lsat. Really, really bad life decision. Awful.

Just because I have a 4.0 gpa does not mean I'm a super genius who is going to score a much higher score on the LSAT. I'm proud of my 160, considering that was above my prep test average. I'm asking for advice on the schools, not your insults directed towards my life decisions.

Penn was a reach school for me. I have gotten 5 full rides from Temple, Villanova, Drexel, Catholic, and Penn State. I think Temple is the best among those considering I want to stay in the Philly area and I like their trial advocacy program. But I'm trying to figure out if I should seriously consider Penn, because I know I would have a wider range of job opportunities.

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

[cavalier1138]

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

I have several friends who have won significant money on slot machines. Ignore the haters and go to Vegas!

Oh, sorry. I thought this was now a competition on who can come up with the worst anecdote-as-data fallacy. My bad.

[S.Picquery]

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

I have several friends who have won significant money on slot machines. Ignore the haters and go to Vegas!

Oh, sorry. I thought this was now a competition on who can come up with the worst anecdote-as-data fallacy. My bad.

Not to be a downer, but anecdata should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt... or a pound of salt. But, Temple for PA isn't a bad choice. It's not THE BEST CHOICE EVER OMG YOU WON THE LOTTERY, but if you graduate with no debt, it's a very low risk investment.

[saf18hornet]

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

I have several friends who have won significant money on slot machines. Ignore the haters and go to Vegas!

Oh, sorry. I thought this was now a competition on who can come up with the worst anecdote-as-data fallacy. My bad.

Not to be a downer, but anecdata should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt... or a pound of salt. But, Temple for PA isn't a bad choice. It's not THE BEST CHOICE EVER OMG YOU WON THE LOTTERY, but if you graduate with no debt, it's a very low risk investment.

Yeah, this ^^. No debt at Temple or Nova is low risk, especially if you aren'the set on big law. Plus, if your grades are good enough to get you in to Penn, you are one of the biggest fish in your small pond at these regional schools which have close to 20% big law and huge networks. Temple and Nova are both nationally recognized names, compared to schools like Hastings or WUSTL for example.

[Ronan]

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

I have several friends who have won significant money on slot machines. Ignore the haters and go to Vegas!

Oh, sorry. I thought this was now a competition on who can come up with the worst anecdote-as-data fallacy. My bad.

Not to be a downer, but anecdata should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt... or a pound of salt. But, Temple for PA isn't a bad choice. It's not THE BEST CHOICE EVER OMG YOU WON THE LOTTERY, but if you graduate with no debt, it's a very low risk investment.

Yeah, this ^^. No debt at Temple or Nova is low risk, especially if you aren'the set on big law. Plus, if your grades are good enough to get you in to Penn, you are one of the biggest fish in your small pond at these regional schools which have close to 20% big law and huge networks. Temple and Nova are both nationally recognized names, compared to schools like Hastings or WUSTL for example.

^ you should be a prelaw advisor.

[cavalier1138]

Both Nova and Temple are great choices with a full ride. I have several friends who graduated from both and went on to Big Law in either Philly or DC. Ignore the haters. Do what makes sense but please don't pay full sticker at Penn. Best of luck!

I have several friends who have won significant money on slot machines. Ignore the haters and go to Vegas!

Oh, sorry. I thought this was now a competition on who can come up with the worst anecdote-as-data fallacy. My bad.

Not to be a downer, but anecdata should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt... or a pound of salt. But, Temple for PA isn't a bad choice. It's not THE BEST CHOICE EVER OMG YOU WON THE LOTTERY, but if you graduate with no debt, it's a very low risk investment.

Yeah, this ^^. No debt at Temple or Nova is low risk, especially if you aren'the set on big law. Plus, if your grades are good enough to get you in to Penn, you are one of the biggest fish in your small pond at these regional schools which have close to 20% big law and huge networks. Temple and Nova are both nationally recognized names, compared to schools like Hastings or WUSTL for example.

...see, you were doing so well until you descended into nonsense again.

The OP cannot rely on being the "biggest fish in a small pond" at Temple and then count on placing in the very small part of the class that gets biglaw. And we won't even get into the part where you totally ignore the OP's LSAT and pretend that undergrad GPA alone is the best indicator of performance (hint: it has the lowest correlation to law school performance). That's now how class ranks work, and you should stop giving advice based on that ridiculous misconception.

Also, stop conflating undergraduate programs/athletics with the law school. No one in the legal world gives a shit that Temple makes the NCAA tournament a lot. There is no universe where Temple is a preferred school for legal hiring compared to WUSTL.

And I should note that I actually advised going to Temple as long as the OP was fine with staying in PA and not getting biglaw. There's not a huge risk here. I'm just against idiotic, "My friend who went to this shit school got a great outcome, so you should go there too," stories. They're not helpful, and they deliberately misrepresent the reality of job expectations from these schools.