Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

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crs101523

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Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:05 pm

Hey guys, looking for some advice/opinions. Deciding between Cardozo, Brooklyn, St. John's, and Rutgers. I am undecided about exactly what kind of law I would ideally like to work in after graduation, but definitely want to keep my biglaw options open, as well as public interest law etc. Looking to stay in NYC/NJ area after graduation. I will be taking out loans to cover living expenses and any leftover tuition that scholarships do not cover. I received the following scholarships:

Cardozo: 52K/year - no stipulations
Brooklyn: 38K/year - top 80% to renew
SJU: full ride - top 60% to renew
Rutgers: 16k/year - top 80% to renew...in state tuition is only $24K

I appreciate any and all input, thanks in advance.

Also, has anyone been successful negotiating more scholarship money from schools? If so would appreciate any guidance on that as well. Thanks!!
Last edited by crs101523 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pancakes3

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:07 pm

don't count on biglaw options. if you're not ok with that, you should not attend. need GPA/LSAT for further guidance.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:08 pm

I am OK if biglaw doesn't work out or I decide I am not interested in it. uGPA is 3.3, LSAT is 163. Thanks.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby guynourmin » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:15 pm

That top 60% stip is dangerous! You should not consider that a viable option.

I don't know much about Cardoza/Brooklyn, but Cardoza having no stipulations is a big advantage imo. Unless Brooklyn is that much better I would choose the no stipulations option.

Difference between Cardoza and Rutgers is market - you say nyc/nj, but where would you rather be? I know they are close to one another, but these are both highly regional schools: last year Rutgers placed about 5 students in NJ for every 1 in NY, and Cardoza placed about 10 students in NY for every 1 in NJ.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:19 pm

Dozo and it's not even close.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:45 pm

CardozoLaw09 wrote:Dozo and it's not even close.


That is what I am leaning towards as well. Can you elborate on why you think it is such an easy decision. Thanks!

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:46 pm

guybourdin wrote:That top 60% stip is dangerous! You should not consider that a viable option.

I don't know much about Cardoza/Brooklyn, but Cardoza having no stipulations is a big advantage imo. Unless Brooklyn is that much better I would choose the no stipulations option.

Difference between Cardoza and Rutgers is market - you say nyc/nj, but where would you rather be? I know they are close to one another, but these are both highly regional schools: last year Rutgers placed about 5 students in NJ for every 1 in NY, and Cardoza placed about 10 students in NY for every 1 in NJ.


Would much rather be in NYC. But I am from North Jersey and would consider that after graduation as well.

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CardozoLaw09

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:56 pm

crs101523 wrote:
CardozoLaw09 wrote:Dozo and it's not even close.


That is what I am leaning towards as well. Can you elborate on why you think it is such an easy decision. Thanks!


Arguably the best out of the schools you're considering and you're getting more money without there being any stipulations attached. Well, other than SJU, but like another poster said, that 60% stip is dangerous, so I would avoid being tempted by that.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby guynourmin » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:01 pm

crs101523 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:That top 60% stip is dangerous! You should not consider that a viable option.

I don't know much about Cardoza/Brooklyn, but Cardoza having no stipulations is a big advantage imo. Unless Brooklyn is that much better I would choose the no stipulations option.

Difference between Cardoza and Rutgers is market - you say nyc/nj, but where would you rather be? I know they are close to one another, but these are both highly regional schools: last year Rutgers placed about 5 students in NJ for every 1 in NY, and Cardoza placed about 10 students in NY for every 1 in NJ.


Would much rather be in NYC. But I am from North Jersey and would consider that after graduation as well.


If you'd rather be in NYC, then I would say negotiate Cardoza and Brooklyn, visit both schools, and see how they stack up. I really cannot speak to which is better (I'm not sure one is "better" than the other, even). Not having a stip at Cardoza is a huge point in their favor. All things being equal, I'd go with that, but I seriously think you should go spend a day at each.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:46 pm

Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby RParadela » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:51 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.


Carozo sends like 15% of their grads to BigLaw so I'm not sure he has NO chance at Biglaw, just a small one

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:54 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.


Yes, biglaw from Cardozo/Brooklyn definitely a long shot. From what I've read/stats I've seen you need to be law review and top 10% of your class to even be considered. I am definitely comfortable with not going biglaw, sorry for not specifying. By saying not "working out" for me I meant that I would not hit those numbers. Thank you for the input!
Last edited by crs101523 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:56 pm

RParadela wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.


Carozo sends like 15% of their grads to BigLaw so I'm not sure he has NO chance at Biglaw, just a small one


I said "no realistic chance (italics added to emphasize that people occasionally use words with the intention of them being read)". I wouldn't stake three years of my life on a 15% chance of getting the outcome I wanted.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:02 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
RParadela wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.


Carozo sends like 15% of their grads to BigLaw so I'm not sure he has NO chance at Biglaw, just a small one


I said "no realistic chance (italics added to emphasize that people occasionally use words with the intention of them being read)". I wouldn't stake three years of my life on a 15% chance of getting the outcome I wanted.


Couldn't agree more. However, biglaw is not the reason I am attending law school, I am completely comfortable not going into biglaw and exploring other options after graduation.

Does anyone have any experience negotiating more skolly $ or getting schools to drop stipulations?

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:07 pm

crs101523 wrote:Does anyone have any experience negotiating more skolly $ or getting schools to drop stipulations?


To negotiate, you just leverage school offers against each other: "Hey, [School A]. You're looking fine today. Is that a new haircut? Listen, I'd love to spend the next three years going over books with you, but [School B] over here will look pretty sexy to me after a few beers and a way bigger scholarship. Any chance of you dropping that stipulation and sweetening that deal a little, sugar?"

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby crs101523 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:11 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
crs101523 wrote:Does anyone have any experience negotiating more skolly $ or getting schools to drop stipulations?


To negotiate, you just leverage school offers against each other: "Hey, [School A]. You're looking fine today. Is that a new haircut? Listen, I'd love to spend the next three years going over books with you, but [School B] over here will look pretty sexy to me after a few beers and a way bigger scholarship. Any chance of you dropping that stipulation and sweetening that deal a little, sugar?"


Lol thank you for the much needed comic relief.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby RParadela » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:44 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
RParadela wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Cardozo. Don't take any scholarships with stipulations.

And just because your prior post seemed a bit over-optimistic: it's not that biglaw won't "work out" for you. You have no realistic chance at biglaw from any of these schools. So as long as you're comfortable with the job options you will have, then go with Cardozo.


Carozo sends like 15% of their grads to BigLaw so I'm not sure he has NO chance at Biglaw, just a small one


I said "no realistic chance (italics added to emphasize that people occasionally use words with the intention of them being read)". I wouldn't stake three years of my life on a 15% chance of getting the outcome I wanted.


I understand what the word realistic means. It's realistic to expect a chance at going BigLaw because 10-15% do. It's not realistic to EXPECT to be in BigLaw.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:54 pm

crs101523 wrote:Hey guys, looking for some advice/opinions. Deciding between Cardozo, Brooklyn, St. John's, and Rutgers. I am undecided about exactly what kind of law I would ideally like to work in after graduation, but definitely want to keep my biglaw options open, as well as public interest law etc. Looking to stay in NYC/NJ area after graduation. I will be taking out loans to cover living expenses and any leftover tuition that scholarships do not cover. I received the following scholarships:

Cardozo: 52K/year - no stipulations
Brooklyn: 38K/year - top 80% to renew
SJU: full ride - top 60% to renew
Rutgers: 16k/year - top 80% to renew...in state tuition is only $24K

I appreciate any and all input, thanks in advance.

Also, has anyone been successful negotiating more scholarship money from schools? If so would appreciate any guidance on that as well. Thanks!!


If you want NYC, Cardozo is your best bet that's basically a full ride. If you live in NYC you might even be able to commute. It's the best school giving you the most money(except SJU which gives everyone huge scholarships and takes it away from over half those kids) and the only one giving you guaranteed money. No brainer here. Cardozo gives you a 1/6 chance of big law, some years 1/5 so you're keeping that door open if you do well and if not you can do something else. Hilarious how everyone takes the whole "keep the big law option open" to mean "big law or bust". The Brooklyn and Rutgers deals are pretty good as far as conditional scholly's go also but not nearly as good as Cardozo's(and again Cardozo is probably the best school of the three in terms of rep). No matter what though do not go to SJU under any circumstances you could lose over 150k to get slightly worse employment numbers than Cardozo and Brooklyn.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:01 pm

Ferrisjso wrote: Hilarious how everyone takes the whole "keep the big law option open" to mean "big law or bust".


The OP has clearly indicated that they aren't really interested in biglaw, but you have completely missed the point.

If you want to keep your options open, you have to have options. If you need to be in the top 10-15% of your class at Cardozo to get biglaw, then 85-90% of the class inherently don't have that option. So the option is not kept open for them. It's not a matter of "biglaw or bust". It's about whether or not biglaw will be a realistic career path from a given school.

But again, this is just for your own edification, because the OP has already indicated their understanding.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:40 pm

I don't think the 15% chance it happens, 85% it doesn't applies to everyone. Some people have inherently better chances than that, some have inherently worse. And no, I'm not talking about your inherent smarts/work ethic/gumption. If you're just kind of average and don't have things that firms look for (diversity factors they are looking for, physical attractiveness, sometimes nepotism, maybe prior work experience but that's doubtful) then it's almost all going to come down to your grades. And if that happens your chances will likely be significantly worse than 15%.

That said don't go to any of these schools if you want anything approximating a realistic chance at big law.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby Johann » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:13 am

Agree with Cardozo and minimizing debt if you're just open to law broadly.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby rwhyAn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:13 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't think the 15% chance it happens, 85% it doesn't applies to everyone. Some people have inherently better chances than that, some have inherently worse. And no, I'm not talking about your inherent smarts/work ethic/gumption. If you're just kind of average and don't have things that firms look for (diversity factors they are looking for, physical attractiveness, sometimes nepotism, maybe prior work experience but that's doubtful) then it's almost all going to come down to your grades. And if that happens your chances will likely be significantly worse than 15%.
That said don't go to any of these schools if you want anything approximating a realistic chance at big law.


The bold is credited. I'm in the top 10% of my class at one of these schools, and I struck out at OCI while others with lesser grades than me but with some of the features mentioned by BigZuck found something. I was probably hurt by the fact that I go part-time (because I work full-time) and wasn't able to get any legal experience during 1L, but I'm just giving you my perspective. I think at my school maybe 5-7% found something through OCI according to the NALP reports.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:28 pm

guybourdin wrote:
crs101523 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:That top 60% stip is dangerous! You should not consider that a viable option.

I don't know much about Cardoza/Brooklyn, but Cardoza having no stipulations is a big advantage imo. Unless Brooklyn is that much better I would choose the no stipulations option.

Difference between Cardoza and Rutgers is market - you say nyc/nj, but where would you rather be? I know they are close to one another, but these are both highly regional schools: last year Rutgers placed about 5 students in NJ for every 1 in NY, and Cardoza placed about 10 students in NY for every 1 in NJ.


Would much rather be in NYC. But I am from North Jersey and would consider that after graduation as well.


If you'd rather be in NYC, then I would say negotiate Cardoza and Brooklyn, visit both schools, and see how they stack up. I really cannot speak to which is better (I'm not sure one is "better" than the other, even). Not having a stip at Cardoza is a huge point in their favor. All things being equal, I'd go with that, but I seriously think you should go spend a day at each.



Jesus. It's Cardozo. :D

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby S.Picquery » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Cardozo. Work hard, be the top of your class, take on minimal debt. Best of luck.

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Re: Advice: Cardozo v Brooklyn v St. John's v Rutgers

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:58 am

S.Picquery wrote:Cardozo. Work hard, be the top of your class, take on minimal debt. Best of luck.


Stop giving advice. That's not how class rank works.



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