Why GULC has a (relatively) low employment rate? Forum

[jasonxi]

Seen on LST. GULC has a lower employment score than many of its peers. Does the fact that GULC has a part-time program have something to do with it?

[GreenEggs]

I'm not a GULC apologist, but I do think there's something to the whole DC non-legal but still prestigious jobs that doesn't get factored into the rates.

[TLSModBot]

The part-time program has little to do with it. In my class, comparable or greater numbers from the evening program went into Biglaw as compared to the full time students. The problems with GULC are:

1. It's too damn big. GULC has no business fielding 600 students per year. It's irresponsible but they can't easily cut class size because:

2. GULC has a small endowment compared to its peers. It's not great on the fiscal front, so any cut to class size means serious cuts to its budget.

3. The hometown advantage doesn't play as well for DC as it does for most of the other T13. UVA I think does much better in DC, and you've got a large interest from the other T13 for a smaller market than NY.

There are probably many other reasons GULC scrapes the bottom of the T14 continuously, but the simple answer is that it just isn't as good as the other T13 and deservedly ranks below them.

[Blackfish]

because it's a Law Center and not a law school.

[BmoreOrLess]

I just don't think GULC really has any "peers," and if it does, it's probably closer to Vandy than NW, Cornell, or the rest of the T13.

I have no experience with gov't work or clerkships, but based on my observations from the OCI process, GULC seems to do as well as the lower T14 for those in the top 1/3rd-ish, and maybe even the top half of the class. That is, GULC isn't closing any doors (other than Wachtell, but that's largely irrelevant) for those who do well relative to similarly situated students in the lower T14. The problem is, "doing well" is a risky proposition, and I think the bottom half is where you see a decided difference between GULC and the rest of the lower T14. Not that it's impossible to get Biglaw or other positive outcomes from below median, but it is an uphill battle that seems more difficult than other T14s. That difference leads to a lot of sleepless nights during 1L if you're sitting on substantial debt.

[Clemenceau]

I have to imagine size is a significant factor. Even if you look within the lower t14, the smaller schools tend to produce better employment percentages. Speaking very generally: duke > michigan, cornell > northwestern, penn > uva. I think all those schools are peers, but the percentages tend to favor the smaller schools. Sure every school has its quirks that might affect their numbers, but the trend is there.

And then theres gulc that's basically twice as big as any of them.

[nealric]

Seen on LST. GULC has a lower employment score than many of its peers. Does the fact that GULC has a part-time program have something to do with it?

If anything, I would think the PT program increases employment since most students remain employed throughout their tenure. As others have said, I think size is an issue. People with good grades tend to do fine, but there's less of a cushion for those who are towards the bottom of the class. I also think that there are a lot of GULC grads that end up in good government jobs that may not get counted in LST as legal employment, but that's pure speculation based on personal observations of the outcomes of my peers.

That said, even as an alum, I'd be sweating bullets if I were a 1L debt financing the whole thing today. Tuition costs have truly gotten out of hand at all law schools. I'm less than 10 years out of school and the sticker price has gone up almost $50k since I attended. Completely bonkers. The only consolation I suppose is that T14 law schools have gotten MUCH easier to get into over the same time period. Applicants that might have been wait listed at GULC 10 years ago can get into higher ranked T14s than it now.

[galeatus]

because it's a Law Center and not a law school.

[favabeansoup]

Size.

The era of 500+ student bodies is just gone (outside of H). I think it is irresponsible to admit that many kids when there is statistics showing there aren't enough good jobs for the a great deal of them.

Hell I think the era of 400+ student bodies has passed. Legal employment is on the rise, but it's still terrible compared to what it used to be. Firms have fundamentally changed to smaller hiring practices compared to 1990s-2007.

I know that people will still be judged on a curve, and below median regardless of size would still have problems. But it's better for 50-60 students to have trouble than 100-200 people having trouble finding jobs.

More selectivity could help push GULC up in certain ranking categories, which might start to trickle into hiring practices and more median/below median kids get good jobs. But they've chosen the opposite approach.

Anecdote: I went to UT. UT used to have ~500 students every year. I'm pretty sure there was <275 in the latest 1L class now.

[dm1683]

The only consolation I suppose is that T14 law schools have gotten MUCH easier to get into over the same time period. Applicants that might have been wait listed at GULC 10 years ago can get into higher ranked T14s than it now.

t

Is this true? Can anyone else confirm this?

[cavalier1138]

The only consolation I suppose is that T14 law schools have gotten MUCH easier to get into over the same time period. Applicants that might have been wait listed at GULC 10 years ago can get into higher ranked T14s than it now.

t

Is this true? Can anyone else confirm this?

Look at the LST reports on any T14 outside of HYS and you'll see that since 2010, medians have steadily declined. In 2010, Georgetown's numbers were 168/170/172. Numbers in those ranges last cycle would have given an applicant a solid chance at NYU. This year, Georgetown's LSAT breakdown was 162/167/168.

[jasonxi]

Thanks everyone for your meaningful insights

[bearsfan23]

The only consolation I suppose is that T14 law schools have gotten MUCH easier to get into over the same time period. Applicants that might have been wait listed at GULC 10 years ago can get into higher ranked T14s than it now.

t

Is this true? Can anyone else confirm this?

Look at the LST reports on any T14 outside of HYS and you'll see that since 2010, medians have steadily declined. In 2010, Georgetown's numbers were 168/170/172. Numbers in those ranges last cycle would have given an applicant a solid chance at NYU. This year, Georgetown's LSAT breakdown was 162/167/168.

What a weird and just inaccurate statement to make.

Chicago has done a better job than H of holding/increasing its medians, for example. I'm not going to look through everything else but your assumption of a huge dropoff after HYS is obviously wrong

[KissMyAxe]

The only consolation I suppose is that T14 law schools have gotten MUCH easier to get into over the same time period. Applicants that might have been wait listed at GULC 10 years ago can get into higher ranked T14s than it now.

t

Is this true? Can anyone else confirm this?

Look at the LST reports on any T14 outside of HYS and you'll see that since 2010, medians have steadily declined. In 2010, Georgetown's numbers were 168/170/172. Numbers in those ranges last cycle would have given an applicant a solid chance at NYU. This year, Georgetown's LSAT breakdown was 162/167/168.

What a weird and just inaccurate statement to make.

Chicago has done a better job than H of holding/increasing its medians, for example. I'm not going to look through everything else but your assumption of a huge dropoff after HYS is obviously wrong

I always love seeing Chicago kids in threads. It's always so entertaining. They are so quick to get offended and defensive about literally anything. There was 0 reason for you respond to this thread and since Chicago's medians do not affect his overall point, you contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion, but you chose to put your 2 cents in anyway. Kudos.

And I think the question of which school has done a better job holding its medians is up for debate. Chicago may have raised its GPA, but its 25th LSAT dropped 2 points, a pretty sizable amount. Meanwhile, HLS maintained its GPA and only suffered a 1 point fall in LSAT across the board, and it did it with a much larger class, in a terrible admissions time, without offering merit based scholarships to artificially boost certain numbers.

[Nebby]

It's the lack of hometown advantage. Chicago has NW/Chi. NY had NYU/CLS/Cornell (lol), SF has Stanford/Berkeley.

DC, however, gets the best and brightest from the entire t13, and that floods the market in a way that is brutal for GULC.

[icansortofmath]

It's the lack of hometown advantage. Chicago has NW/Chi. NY had NYU/CLS/Cornell (lol), SF has Stanford/Berkeley.

DC, however, gets the best and brightest from the entire t13, and that floods the market in a way that is brutal for GULC.

This.

I also suspect GULC is also managing to stay at 14 and not really trying to move up. They get like 100 transfers a year and that has to hurt employment numbers a bit. (Not technically... but school is already so big and there are only so many jobs in DC itself).

The transfer issue could be related to GULC's relative lack of endowments though.

[GoldenPuppy]

because it's a Law Center and not a law school.

TITCR.
Free advice: think long and hard about what name you give your child. You have no idea how important the name is.

Also, I would never attend a law school whose abbreviation is “GULC.” I think that’s the sound murder victims make when they die.

[jsnow212]

Seems like, even three years later, the Law Center lives up to its infamous name.