Public Interest Megathread for T14s (employment data, resources, testimonials) Forum

[Mothetgoo]

Are these numbers, in peoples' opinions, based more on the culture of the school and people choosing what they want to do based on that (and the similar choices their peers are making) or on a school's ability to get its students pi/gov jobs? Even if you take out Georgetown, the location of which obviously make government jobs more popular, is the difference between say, Chicago and NYU due to a culture at one that means that nearly twice as many people pursue public interest? Asked a different way, if a public interest aspiring student attended Chicago instead of NYU, would it be twice as difficult for him/her to get a PI job, or would he or she just be half as likely to come out of law school still interested in PI?

[cavalier1138]

Are these numbers, in peoples' opinions, based more on the culture of the school and people choosing what they want to do based on that (and the similar choices their peers are making) or on a school's ability to get its students pi/gov jobs? Even if you take out Georgetown, the location of which obviously make government jobs more popular, is the difference between say, Chicago and NYU due to a culture at one that means that nearly twice as many people pursue public interest? Asked a different way, if a public interest aspiring student attended Chicago instead of NYU, would it be twice as difficult for him/her to get a PI job, or would he or she just be half as likely to come out of law school still interested in PI?

This is a question that I had to wrestle with quite a bit. And I'm a 0L, so take this with a grain of salt.

I think the culture of the school directly impacts both of the areas you identified. Yes, having more like-minded students around you will make you more likely to stick to what is an extremely difficult career track. And yes, having a school that has a history of putting students in these jobs gives you more of a support network upon graduation.

And when you think about it on a practical level, a school that emphasizes PI work will have more clinics, internship connections, and fellowship offerings than one that doesn't. And when it comes time for the ACLU to recruit, they're obviously going to gravitate to schools that have already sent them good candidates in the past, rather than take a risk on that one good student from a school they haven't worked with consistently.

Anyway, that's what I've observed in my process. I'm sure a student who's actually in 3L or beyond will be able to offer more insight.

[Nebby]

Are these numbers, in peoples' opinions, based more on the culture of the school and people choosing what they want to do based on that (and the similar choices their peers are making) or on a school's ability to get its students pi/gov jobs? Even if you take out Georgetown, the location of which obviously make government jobs more popular, is the difference between say, Chicago and NYU due to a culture at one that means that nearly twice as many people pursue public interest? Asked a different way, if a public interest aspiring student attended Chicago instead of NYU, would it be twice as difficult for him/her to get a PI job, or would he or she just be half as likely to come out of law school still interested in PI?

Percentage wise NYU has twice as many, but total number wise it's four times as many students. The PI culture at a place near the bottom is likely nonexistent, such as Duke or Chicago. I know a public interest attorney who went to Chicago and absolutely hated it, and ten years after graduating she still complains about how awful it was.

I can't speak to whether it would be *more* difficult to get a PI job from Chicago, but it's likely that they won't have resources that a HLS, NYU, or Berkeley has for PI students. CLS actually, in my biased opinion, has even better PI resources than NYU.

[twenty]

Asked a different way, if a public interest aspiring student attended Chicago instead of NYU, would it be twice as difficult for him/her to get a PI job, or would he or she just be half as likely to come out of law school still interested in PI?

Good question, but no. Other posters are correct in that NYU and to a lesser extent Columbia have "stronger PI cultures" than Chicago, but in terms of availability and resources, all three schools are pretty much tied. The advantage these three schools (plus maybe Berkeley) have is that they place students in high-prestige PI and government positions far more consistently than lower ranked schools. It's not so much about the level of resources at that point, it's about the employers that are willing to look at the students. And for whatever reason, the ACLU gives a significant preference to Chicago or Columbia kids over Cornell and UCLA kids.

Keep in mind that the public interest/government score is not equal to "best school for PI." University of Hawaii, for instance, had a PI/govt score of 46.6%, with 42.7% of that being government. Why? Location. The only school in Hawaii is going to have a massive boost over any other law school for Hawaiian government jobs because those students have unique access to fellowships/volunteering/externing in government offices there. Conversely, you should really be considering this factor for any law school you attend, even within the T14. The reason GULC has such a high percentage of PI/govt-interested students is because GULC is located in a city with access to almost every federal office in existence - and the guy you extern for during 2L for is likely going to be the guy who makes the hiring decisions for the honors program come the following fall.

I'm glad I picked the school I did, but the closest office for the job I've been gunning for is 400 miles away. Knowing what I know now, I might have picked a lower ranked school with a worse PI/govt reputation that was closer to that (or another) office.

[Nebby]

I would like to see what PI Chicago students go to. Only 5 went into PI, and 7 into Government. On that note:

One thing I'm going to try and do is speak with students from various schools and get testimonials as to what it's like being a PI student at the various top schools.

[guynourmin]

Added in a 10 more schools. One thing I thought was of note regarding the schools I added was UCLA's pi/govt jobs were 71% school funded while only two other schools were over 20% (USC 32%; BU 26%).

Boston University: 22.6% (47)
UC Berkeley: 19.8% (55)
Georgetown: 19.6% (133)
George Washington: 19.6% (91)
NYU: 18.8% (91)
Notre Dame: 17.9% (32)
Emory: 17.5% (54)
Texas: 16.1% (57)
UCLA: 14.3% (48)
Harvard: 13.6% (80)
Yale: 13.5% (27)
Boston College: 13.4% (33)
UMich: 12.7% (45)
UVA: 12% (44)
Vanderbilt: 11.9% (22)
Columbia: 11.6% (48)
WUSTL: 11% (25)
Cornell: 11% (21)
USC: 10.3% (22)
Stanford: 9.2% (18)
Penn: 8.5% (21)
NU: 6.6% (19)
Chicago: 6.1% (12)
Duke: 5.3% (11)

[cavalier1138]

Added in a 10 more schools. One thing I thought was of note regarding the schools I added was UCLA's pi/govt jobs were 71% school funded while only two other schools were over 20% (USC 32%; BU 26%).

Boston University: 22.6% (47)
UC Berkeley: 19.8% (55)
Georgetown: 19.6% (133)
George Washington: 19.6% (91)
NYU: 18.8% (91)
Notre Dame: 17.9% (32)
Emory: 17.5% (54)
Texas: 16.1% (57)
UCLA: 14.3% (48)
Harvard: 13.6% (80)
Yale: 13.5% (27)
Boston College: 13.4% (33)
UMich: 12.7% (45)
UVA: 12% (44)
Vanderbilt: 11.9% (22)
Columbia: 11.6% (48)
WUSTL: 11% (25)
Cornell: 11% (21)
USC: 10.3% (22)
Stanford: 9.2% (18)
Penn: 8.5% (21)
NU: 6.6% (19)
Chicago: 6.1% (12)
Duke: 5.3% (11)

As pointed out above, it's important to bear in mind that the percentage isn't as important as the raw number. It's also important to bear in mind that with schools like BU and UCLA, for example, you're looking at a lot of people who ended up in local PI/government positions. But when you're looking at NYU/Harvard/etc., you're looking at people who landed ACLU fellowships, DOJ positions, etc. So that's why it's not always helpful to just compare numbers on PI like you would on biglaw. PI encompasses so many jobs with varying degrees of desirability.

[Nebby]

Added in a 10 more schools. One thing I thought was of note regarding the schools I added was UCLA's pi/govt jobs were 71% school funded while only two other schools were over 20% (USC 32%; BU 26%).

Boston University: 22.6% (47)
UC Berkeley: 19.8% (55)
Georgetown: 19.6% (133)
George Washington: 19.6% (91)
NYU: 18.8% (91)
Notre Dame: 17.9% (32)
Emory: 17.5% (54)
Texas: 16.1% (57)
UCLA: 14.3% (48)
Harvard: 13.6% (80)
Yale: 13.5% (27)
Boston College: 13.4% (33)
UMich: 12.7% (45)
UVA: 12% (44)
Vanderbilt: 11.9% (22)
Columbia: 11.6% (48)
WUSTL: 11% (25)
Cornell: 11% (21)
USC: 10.3% (22)
Stanford: 9.2% (18)
Penn: 8.5% (21)
NU: 6.6% (19)
Chicago: 6.1% (12)
Duke: 5.3% (11)

As pointed out above, it's important to bear in mind that the percentage isn't as important as the raw number. It's also important to bear in mind that with schools like BU and UCLA, for example, you're looking at a lot of people who ended up in local PI/government positions. But when you're looking at NYU/Harvard/etc., you're looking at people who landed ACLU fellowships, DOJ positions, etc. So that's why it's not always helpful to just compare numbers on PI like you would on biglaw. PI encompasses so many jobs with varying degrees of desirability.

Yep.

One thing I'm going to do (maybe tonight while I'm binging season 2 of Kimmy Schmidt?) is compile the data for Skadden fellows over the last 5 years, so people have an idea of what schools place the most. This will give another barometer for prospective students to look at in terms of desirable PI outcomes from top schools.

[Nebby]

added Skadden Fellow data to OP

[zot1]

added Skadden Fellow data to OP

Surprised to see that Irvine has had 2 since 2012. Thanks for compiling!

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Interesting. Thanks for compiling.

[Nebby]

EJW Fellowship data added to OP

[zot1]

Irvine: 4 EJW since 2012.

[Nebby]

6 year employment trends added to OP

[GFox345]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

[Nebby]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

[GFox345]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

[Nebby]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

Those fellowships, at least those available at the T14, are all a year-long and therefore are considered FT/LT by the ABA form

[GFox345]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

Those fellowships, at least those available at the T14, are all a year-long and therefore are considered FT/LT by the ABA form

So do we have any idea what these FT/ST Jobs are? They are a significant presence in the case of Michigan, amounting to roughly 50% of the PI/Gov Jobs. There were 21 FTST PI/Gov jobs reported in the Class of 2015 Employment Statistics. Are these jobs an instance of the school being duplicitous with its employment numbers? Why does no one care about these jobs?

[GFox345]

I only ask because if they were included they would put Michigan at around 19%, which is more akin to schools like Berkeley, NYU, and Georgetown.

EDIT: Now that I look at it, it appears that you included these positions in the case of Berkeley, but there were only 2 of them.

[Meow Meowsworth]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

Those fellowships, at least those available at the T14, are all a year-long and therefore are considered FT/LT by the ABA form

So do we have any idea what these FT/ST Jobs are? They are a significant presence in the case of Michigan, amounting to roughly 50% of the PI/Gov Jobs. There were 21 FTST PI/Gov jobs reported in the Class of 2015 Employment Statistics. Are these jobs an instance of the school being duplicitous with its employment numbers? Why does no one care about these jobs?

https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/Pages ... comes.aspx

Looking at it, it seems like in contrast to the fellowships at other T14 schools that are often the student's plan/goal, these are kind of a fallback option if you can't get anything else. I don't want to mischaracterize them if that isn't what they are, so if someone who attends Michigan wants to speak up, please do.

[GFox345]

I've gone through the T-14 in an attempt to get some other FTST Job Totals, and these were my results.

GULC 8.25% (56)
Michigan 5.93% (21)
Chicago 2.56% (5)
Cornell 2.09% (4)
Duke 0.96% (2)
Berkeley 0.72% (2)
NYU 0.67% (3)
Harvard 0.51% (3)
Yale 0.50% (1)
UPenn 0.41% (1)
UVA 0.27% (1)
Northwestern 0% (0)
Columbia 0% (0)
Stanford 0% (0)

Based on this, the schools for which these FTST PI and Gov Jobs represent a significant portion of the class are: GULC, Michigan, Chicago, Cornell, and Duke. Thoughts?

[GFox345]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

Those fellowships, at least those available at the T14, are all a year-long and therefore are considered FT/LT by the ABA form

So do we have any idea what these FT/ST Jobs are? They are a significant presence in the case of Michigan, amounting to roughly 50% of the PI/Gov Jobs. There were 21 FTST PI/Gov jobs reported in the Class of 2015 Employment Statistics. Are these jobs an instance of the school being duplicitous with its employment numbers? Why does no one care about these jobs?

https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/Pages ... comes.aspx

Looking at it, it seems like in contrast to the fellowships at other T14 schools that are often the student's plan/goal, these are kind of a fallback option if you can't get anything else. I don't want to mischaracterize them if that isn't what they are, so if someone who attends Michigan wants to speak up, please do.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you described in another thread fellowships at NU that serve a very similar function to these fellowships at UMich. You said that they pay $50k/year plus benefits and require full-time work at a government agency or non-profit, that they last a year from their start date, and that they are given to approximately 12 students per year.

See below from the page you linked:

"The fellowship is particularly valuable, for example, for students whose intended future employer hires only as positions become available, such as in the public interest law sector, or requires bar passage prior to the start date. Fellowships are awarded for up to 12 months and require full-time work at a government agency (federal, state, or local) or nonprofit organization."

What would you say is the difference between these Bridge Fellowships and the Fellowships that are given at NU that you described in the other thread other than that the ones at NU last a year and are counted as FTLT?

[Mrs Featherbottom]

I've gone through the T-14 in an attempt to get some other FTST Job Totals, and these were my results.

GULC 8.25% (56)
Michigan 5.93% (21)
Chicago 2.56% (5)
Cornell 2.09% (4)
Duke 0.96% (2)
Berkeley 0.72% (2)
NYU 0.67% (3)
Harvard 0.51% (3)
Yale 0.50% (1)
UPenn 0.41% (1)
UVA 0.27% (1)
Northwestern 0% (0)
Columbia 0% (0)
Stanford 0% (0)

Based on this, the schools for which these FTST PI and Gov Jobs represent a significant portion of the class are: GULC, Michigan, Chicago, Cornell, and Duke. Thoughts?

Not sure Duke should make the cut here with only two students representing less than 1% of the class. Cornell and Chicago's numbers seem pretty statistically insignificant too for that matter.

I would be interested to see what these positions look like at GULC however, since that's a pretty big chunk of the graduating class.

[Meow Meowsworth]

Why have all jobs except for those that are Fulltime and Long Term been excluded? What is the rationale for this?

No one cares about part-time or short-term. They aren't good outcomes in almost all situations.

Several people have mentioned to me that some of these Fulltime Short Term Jobs are School-Funded Fellowships that often lead into Fulltime PI/Gov jobs. Is this incorrect?

Those fellowships, at least those available at the T14, are all a year-long and therefore are considered FT/LT by the ABA form

So do we have any idea what these FT/ST Jobs are? They are a significant presence in the case of Michigan, amounting to roughly 50% of the PI/Gov Jobs. There were 21 FTST PI/Gov jobs reported in the Class of 2015 Employment Statistics. Are these jobs an instance of the school being duplicitous with its employment numbers? Why does no one care about these jobs?

https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/Pages ... comes.aspx

Looking at it, it seems like in contrast to the fellowships at other T14 schools that are often the student's plan/goal, these are kind of a fallback option if you can't get anything else. I don't want to mischaracterize them if that isn't what they are, so if someone who attends Michigan wants to speak up, please do.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you described in another thread fellowships at NU that serve a very similar function to these fellowships at UMich. You said that they pay $50k/year plus benefits and require full-time work at a government agency or non-profit, that they last a year from their start date, and that they are given to approximately 12 students per year.

See below from the page you linked:

"The fellowship is particularly valuable, for example, for students whose intended future employer hires only as positions become available, such as in the public interest law sector, or requires bar passage prior to the start date. Fellowships are awarded for up to 12 months and require full-time work at a government agency (federal, state, or local) or nonprofit organization."

What would you say is the difference between these Bridge Fellowships and the Fellowships that are given at NU that you described in the other thread other than that the ones at NU last a year and are counted as FTLT?

I think the major difference would be in how the programs are described. You quoted the main comparable part between the programs, but you didn't quote the differences.

The bridge fellowship is described as follows at the top of the page I linked: "And, while more than 90 percent of our students are typically employed at graduation, some find they need to bridge the gap between graduation and full-time, permanent legal employment." That whole paragraph seemingly implies that this is for people who were unable to find jobs elsewhere. In contrast, the NU fellowship program is something people actually plan to do (at least this year and last year's class) and there is actually a competitive application process. Basically, the people who apply for the NU fellowship tend to be people who also applied for Skadden and EJW fellowships, where as it seems like a significant number of the people at Michigan are just ones who ended up without a job at graduation.

Another key difference would be the commitment of the fellowship. My reading of the bridge fellowship is that it is essentially a fellowship you have until you can find something else. In contrast, the NU fellowship is a 1 year commitment that you are not supposed to break. During that year, you can seek other employment after the end of your fellowship, but you are supposed to stay with your organization for the duration of the fellowship. The language of the descriptions of both programs bears this out:

Michigan Bridge: "Fellowships are awarded for up to 12 months and require full-time work at a government agency (federal, state, or local) or nonprofit organization. The MLaw Bridge Fellowship (MBF) offers experience and peace of mind in transition and provides 3Ls who are actively seeking, but have not yet obtained full-time employment, with substantive work in their desired job sector and location."

NU Pritzker (http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... ol-funded/): "[T]he Pritzker Fellowship Program provides nine full-time, year-long, benefits paid, post-graduate public interest fellowships each year. Designed to assist students who wish to practice public interest law, recipients, through a competitive application process, are chosen based on positions they have secured that will provide legal services or advocacy to underrepresented clients at a domestic nonprofit agency."

Maybe my bias as a current NU student is showing, but it sounds to me like the NU program is designed for people dedicated to public interest and the Michigan program is designed for jobless people. The job statistics Michigan provides seem to show this. Only 23/49 continued in public interest or government jobs after the end of the fellowship.

Also, just to clarify, the NU fellowship program had 10 fellows in its first year, 9 last year, and I believe it will be 10 again this year. Just don't want anyone thinking it is 12.