Virginia school-funded positions

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TheSpanishMain

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:49 pm

I thought it was because you can't get hired for government jobs until you pass the bar, so the school funded thing was a way to keep you alive/let you intern until you can (hopefully) get hired on as a permanent employee

Nomo

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Nomo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:52 pm

This is the new normal. Non-profits don't want to pay people, and don't have enough money to pay people anyways. They are subsisting heavily off the labor of school-funded fellowships and people who volunteer without school funded fellowships. Some of those people will eventually get non-profit jobs - but there are many more volunteers and school funded fellowship people looking for real work than there are job openings.

I'm not from UVA, but I would guess students with real demonstrated public interest and halfway decent grades were able to get actual public interest jobs and didn't need school-funded fellowships. Our fellowships at Michigan were smaller and less used, but it seems like a lot of the people on them were people who struck out at OCI, then worked for a smaller firm or in house at a company 2L summer hoping to get a big firm job as a 3L. When that didn't work, school funded fellowships were all they had left. I bet the same is true at UVA.

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worldtraveler

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:31 pm

Nomo wrote:This is the new normal. Non-profits don't want to pay people, and don't have enough money to pay people anyways. They are subsisting heavily off the labor of school-funded fellowships and people who volunteer without school funded fellowships. Some of those people will eventually get non-profit jobs - but there are many more volunteers and school funded fellowship people looking for real work than there are job openings.

I'm not from UVA, but I would guess students with real demonstrated public interest and halfway decent grades were able to get actual public interest jobs and didn't need school-funded fellowships. Our fellowships at Michigan were smaller and less used, but it seems like a lot of the people on them were people who struck out at OCI, then worked for a smaller firm or in house at a company 2L summer hoping to get a big firm job as a 3L. When that didn't work, school funded fellowships were all they had left. I bet the same is true at UVA.


You could guess that, but you're probably wrong. PI hiring is tough enough that you can have a great resume for it and still need to rely on a school sponsored fellowship, at least for a few months. This is especially true since most (practically all) hiring outside of the most prestigious fellowships occurs after graduation and bar passage.

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Nomo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:19 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Nomo wrote:This is the new normal. Non-profits don't want to pay people, and don't have enough money to pay people anyways. They are subsisting heavily off the labor of school-funded fellowships and people who volunteer without school funded fellowships. Some of those people will eventually get non-profit jobs - but there are many more volunteers and school funded fellowship people looking for real work than there are job openings.

I'm not from UVA, but I would guess students with real demonstrated public interest and halfway decent grades were able to get actual public interest jobs and didn't need school-funded fellowships. Our fellowships at Michigan were smaller and less used, but it seems like a lot of the people on them were people who struck out at OCI, then worked for a smaller firm or in house at a company 2L summer hoping to get a big firm job as a 3L. When that didn't work, school funded fellowships were all they had left. I bet the same is true at UVA.


You could guess that, but you're probably wrong. PI hiring is tough enough that you can have a great resume for it and still need to rely on a school sponsored fellowship, at least for a few months. This is especially true since most (practically all) hiring outside of the most prestigious fellowships occurs after graduation and bar passage.


But, if someone starts in a school-funded fellowship, but gets a real job within 9 months of graduation the full-time job is what gets reported, not the school-funded job. Am I wrong about that?

At least at Michigan I didn't see many people who were really into PI from the get go take school funded fellowships. I certainly didn't see many stay in them long.

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dresden doll

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:31 pm

Nomo wrote:At least at Michigan I didn't see many people who were really into PI from the get go take school funded fellowships. I certainly didn't see many stay in them long.


Not sure how reporting works, but I have seen a number of PI-minded people take school-funded fellowships. The fact of the matter is that entry level jobs are practically nonexistent (I happened to snag one but I was incredibly, incredibly lucky), while fellowships like EJW and Skadden are exceedingly competitive. It shouldn't be shocking that PI people wind up jumping on the school-funded fellowship train after exhausting their other, very limited, options. This is doubly the case for those who are fairly specific about the type of PI they're after (i.e. women's rights, immigrants' rights, racial justice, etc.).

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84651846190

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby 84651846190 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:On its face, I don't see a lot wrong with a school funding a private internship, that is, if they've literally exhausted all other potential legal job routes. Can anyone who opposes it explain why it is?

Because, like I said, school funded positions with private employers increase those employers' personal profits. That's not the case for non-profit entities. If a private employer personally benefits from your work, they should pay you. (Also, the labor department draws a distinction.)

But as you can see, it's not a popular opinion around here. :D


The non-profit/for-profit breakdown is not as black and white as you're making it seem. A lot of non-profits are shady as hell and waste a ton of money (usually by siphoning it off to its officers and executives). For example, I know someone who works for a "non-profit" lobbying organization, and their job sounds like some of the shadiest shit I've ever heard of. I'm talking about huge bonuses being paid to manager-level employees (without being accurately reported to auditors) and straight up bribery of government officials.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:33 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:On its face, I don't see a lot wrong with a school funding a private internship, that is, if they've literally exhausted all other potential legal job routes. Can anyone who opposes it explain why it is?

Because, like I said, school funded positions with private employers increase those employers' personal profits. That's not the case for non-profit entities. If a private employer personally benefits from your work, they should pay you. (Also, the labor department draws a distinction.)

But as you can see, it's not a popular opinion around here. :D


The non-profit/for-profit breakdown is not as black and white as you're making it seem. A lot of non-profits are shady as hell and waste a ton of money (usually by siphoning it off to its officers and executives). For example, I know someone who works for a "non-profit" lobbying organization, and their job sounds like some of the shadiest shit I've ever heard of. I'm talking about huge bonuses being paid to manager-level employees (without being accurately reported to auditors) and straight up bribery of government officials.

Yeah, it's more a theoretical/conceptual distinction. I'm sure some non-profits completely abuse that status. (Although should lobbyists even count as non-profits, really?)

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby albanach » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:07 am

Nomo wrote:
But, if someone starts in a school-funded fellowship, but gets a real job within 9 months of graduation the full-time job is what gets reported, not the school-funded job. Am I wrong about that?


I imagine a lot of these fellowships that turn into employment with the same non-profit will see the offer being extended at the end of the year, not sooner unless they think the lawyer is going to leave. What other incentive would a non-profit have to take on paying someone that's currently working for them for free?



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