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Borhas wrote:

lawpotato wrote:Goals: Biglaw
Regional Ties: Strong ties to LA/OC
School: USC. Total scholarship over 3 years is $144,000. Will not have to take out loans my first year due to money still left over in my college fund. Will be financing tuition only in loans for 2L and 3L. Will have roughly $39,000 in loans upon graduation. Guaranteed 1L SA in biglaw firm.
Other pertinent information: $0 undergrad loans. Spouse who will cover cost of living
Bad decision? Defensible option? Pls advise

incomplete information

if applicable: what are you doing now? do you enjoy it? how much time do you devote to it? how much do you make and expect to make over your career?

essentially, opportunity cost

I'm K-JD so what I'm doing now is not particularly applicable. I make a little over minimum wage working part-time at my university so that did not factor into my decision making at all. What other information is needed?

bwaldorf wrote:Almost a full ride to WUSTL over here with $0 in debt to be incurred (maybe 10k in loans for 3L if I can't squeeze my savings through the third year/don't get an SA or really any paying job for the summer lol). Glad I seem to be in a good spot!

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on UT/Georgetown/George Washington/University of Illinois (all schools I considered).

My goals are BL ---> public defender ---> eventually own my own firm. I know BL will be a stretch but I do have a ton of ties to Missouri and St. Louis, so I'm hoping that helps. I chose Wash U because I won't have to incur any debt and I want to stay in St. Louis for good.

I am a PD now and we haven't had anyone lateral from BigLaw. I don't think it is because we wouldn't take former BL people but because it would be a huge drop in compensation, and a huge change in practice type. Basically, a rare fact pattern you have. Other than being lawyers and working long hours there is really no overlap at all between BL and PD work.

If I was a PD supervisor/hiring director I would know that you'd only do PD work for 1-3 years before bailing and I'd probably still hire you because I'd be a desperate PD supervisor in Missouri. Missouri's PD system in particular is awful, starting salaries at less than 40k? I mean I get that there is low COL there but jesus. I don't know anything else about them other than their salaries but I can't imagine they give you much to work with (investigators? expert witness funding? social workers?) and probably a bigger than average caseload to boot. However, assuming you want to have a solo practice (at first), PD work will give you tons of trial and motions hearing experience so you will be able to handle yourself in court fairly well when you go out on your own. On the other hand PD work is exclusively criminal so the breadth of your practice at the beginning will depend on your BL practice group. Some practice areas work better with criminal than others. Bankruptcy, Divorces, Personal Injury come to mind. Intellectual Property and transactional shit? not so much.

Anyway, you are going to be working primarily in private practice and are not going to a school which will safely place you in BL so you are right to lean towards 0 debt situation (Really almost always the right choice) and want to live in St. Louis so I can't think of a better choice than WUSTL.

lawpotato wrote:

Borhas wrote:

lawpotato wrote:Goals: Biglaw
Regional Ties: Strong ties to LA/OC
School: USC. Total scholarship over 3 years is $144,000. Will not have to take out loans my first year due to money still left over in my college fund. Will be financing tuition only in loans for 2L and 3L. Will have roughly $39,000 in loans upon graduation. Guaranteed 1L SA in biglaw firm.
Other pertinent information: $0 undergrad loans. Spouse who will cover cost of living
Bad decision? Defensible option? Pls advise

incomplete information

if applicable: what are you doing now? do you enjoy it? how much time do you devote to it? how much do you make and expect to make over your career?

essentially, opportunity cost

I'm K-JD so what I'm doing now is not particularly applicable. I make a little over minimum wage working part-time at my university so that did not factor into my decision making at all. What other information is needed?

My concern for you is that you might succeed and end up hating your life, so long as you know what you are getting yourself into as far as life as a lawyer (big lawyer and small lawyer) then 39k COA for USC JD seems defensible.

Borhas wrote:

bwaldorf wrote:Almost a full ride to WUSTL over here with $0 in debt to be incurred (maybe 10k in loans for 3L if I can't squeeze my savings through the third year/don't get an SA or really any paying job for the summer lol). Glad I seem to be in a good spot!

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on UT/Georgetown/George Washington/University of Illinois (all schools I considered).

My goals are BL ---> public defender ---> eventually own my own firm. I know BL will be a stretch but I do have a ton of ties to Missouri and St. Louis, so I'm hoping that helps. I chose Wash U because I won't have to incur any debt and I want to stay in St. Louis for good.

I am a PD now and we haven't had anyone lateral from BigLaw. I don't think it is because we wouldn't take former BL people but because it would be a huge drop in compensation, and a huge change in practice type. Basically, a rare fact pattern you have. Other than being lawyers and working long hours there is really no overlap at all between BL and PD work.

If I was a PD supervisor/hiring director I would know that you'd only do PD work for 1-3 years before bailing and I'd probably still hire you because I'd be a desperate PD supervisor in Missouri. Missouri's PD system in particular is awful, starting salaries at less than 40k? I mean I get that there is low COL there but jesus. I don't know anything else about them other than their salaries but I can't imagine they give you much to work with (investigators? expert witness funding? social workers?) and probably a bigger than average caseload to boot. However, assuming you want to have a solo practice (at first), PD work will give you tons of trial and motions hearing experience so you will be able to handle yourself in court fairly well when you go out on your own. On the other hand PD work is exclusively criminal so the breadth of your practice at the beginning will depend on your BL practice group. Some practice areas work better with criminal than others. Bankruptcy, Divorces, Personal Injury come to mind. Intellectual Property and transactional shit? not so much.

Anyway, you are going to be working primarily in private practice and are not going to a school which will safely place you in BL so you are right to lean towards 0 debt situation (Really almost always the right choice) and want to live in St. Louis so I can't think of a better choice than WUSTL.

I'm very familiar with MO's PD system and the problems it has. However, I think it would be a necessary step in eventually owning my own criminal practice as it, as you said, gives you tons of trial and motions hearing experience. My goal is criminal defense although I'm well aware I'd have to do other work to keep the doors open for awhile. I see no reason to go out of state to be a PD when I want to come back to St. Louis - which I'd probably have to in order to start a successful solo practice, as that is where my social network is. I'd be willing to be a prosecutor as well, although the ones I know said they made about the same as PDs in Missouri.

Basically, I know the overhead for owning my own firm will be huge, and I want BL solely for the money to save up for that (and possibly to make a few connections here and there). I'm by no means BL or bust. I'm going to shoot for it, and I think the connections I have will help me (hopefully), but I wouldn't be upset if I didn't get it. I'm more concerned with staying in St. Louis.

Anyways, I'm just a lowly 0L, so my career goals may certainly change. Criminal defense is what I've always wanted to do, though, so I'm trying to get there eventually.

bwaldorf wrote:

Borhas wrote:

bwaldorf wrote:Almost a full ride to WUSTL over here with $0 in debt to be incurred (maybe 10k in loans for 3L if I can't squeeze my savings through the third year/don't get an SA or really any paying job for the summer lol). Glad I seem to be in a good spot!

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on UT/Georgetown/George Washington/University of Illinois (all schools I considered).

My goals are BL ---> public defender ---> eventually own my own firm. I know BL will be a stretch but I do have a ton of ties to Missouri and St. Louis, so I'm hoping that helps. I chose Wash U because I won't have to incur any debt and I want to stay in St. Louis for good.

I am a PD now and we haven't had anyone lateral from BigLaw. I don't think it is because we wouldn't take former BL people but because it would be a huge drop in compensation, and a huge change in practice type. Basically, a rare fact pattern you have. Other than being lawyers and working long hours there is really no overlap at all between BL and PD work.

If I was a PD supervisor/hiring director I would know that you'd only do PD work for 1-3 years before bailing and I'd probably still hire you because I'd be a desperate PD supervisor in Missouri. Missouri's PD system in particular is awful, starting salaries at less than 40k? I mean I get that there is low COL there but jesus. I don't know anything else about them other than their salaries but I can't imagine they give you much to work with (investigators? expert witness funding? social workers?) and probably a bigger than average caseload to boot. However, assuming you want to have a solo practice (at first), PD work will give you tons of trial and motions hearing experience so you will be able to handle yourself in court fairly well when you go out on your own. On the other hand PD work is exclusively criminal so the breadth of your practice at the beginning will depend on your BL practice group. Some practice areas work better with criminal than others. Bankruptcy, Divorces, Personal Injury come to mind. Intellectual Property and transactional shit? not so much.

Anyway, you are going to be working primarily in private practice and are not going to a school which will safely place you in BL so you are right to lean towards 0 debt situation (Really almost always the right choice) and want to live in St. Louis so I can't think of a better choice than WUSTL.

I'm very familiar with MO's PD system and the problems it has. However, I think it would be a necessary step in eventually owning my own criminal practice as it, as you said, gives you tons of trial and motions hearing experience. My goal is criminal defense although I'm well aware I'd have to do other work to keep the doors open for awhile. I see no reason to go out of state to be a PD when I want to come back to St. Louis - which I'd probably have to in order to start a successful solo practice, as that is where my social network is. I'd be willing to be a prosecutor as well, although the ones I know said they made about the same as PDs in Missouri.

Basically, I know the overhead for owning my own firm will be huge, and I want BL solely for the money to save up for that (and possibly to make a few connections here and there). I'm by no means BL or bust. I'm going to shoot for it, and I think the connections I have will help me (hopefully), but I wouldn't be upset if I didn't get it. I'm more concerned with staying in St. Louis.

Anyways, I'm just a lowly 0L, so my career goals may certainly change. Criminal defense is what I've always wanted to do, though, so I'm trying to get there eventually.

seems like a decent plan then

saving money for the shingle hanging is definitely important, but I've known several people do this and there are ways to save money

share an office and secretary w/ other lawyers - you don't have to partner up or anything just share the office, many times you can ask the other lawyers for help and they might refer you clients (although if they do crim probably not, and if they don't do crim then they may not be that helpful)

take on conflict cases - often times court appoint private attorneys to represent clients that the pd conflicts off of. There is usually an hourly rate (in CO felonies are $80/hour) or a flat rate fee (for example 750 for the case and another 750 for the trial if it goes).

OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

no debt is a great start, especially now that PSLF is in doubt thanks to Trump

We have one guy from Penn State at our PD office (in Colorado). Doesn't mean much I guess as I'd still wager Penn State is more of a regional school. Are you ok with working as a public defender in Pennsylvania for a good chunk of your early career? Philly has a decent office, but I don't know much about anywhere else in the state.

a few other questions
1) is your scholarship GPA contingent?
2) what are your other school options?

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

You're in good shape. Philly is hard for people without ties to break into if you're looking to work there - almost all of my out of state friends left for NYC or other markets after we graduated.

Borhas wrote:

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

no debt is a great start, especially now that PSLF is in doubt thanks to Trump

We have one guy from Penn State at our PD office (in Colorado). Doesn't mean much I guess as I'd still wager Penn State is more of a regional school. Are you ok with working as a public defender in Pennsylvania for a good chunk of your early career? Philly has a decent office, but I don't know much about anywhere else in the state.

a few other questions
1) is your scholarship GPA contingent?
2) what are your other school options?

Yeah I'm OK with working in Pennsylvania. I'm heading to the area having lived on the West Coast my whole life. It is a big change but I am OK with that.

No conditions on the scholarship. I had a full ride from UIUC (already withdrawn so a bit late to talk about). The issue was that I applied late to UIUC and heard back late. I had visited Penn State already and put down a deposit right before their deadline before I got the UIUC offer. It's OK though. I would have had to borrow some to pay living expenses and I am very debt averse. I just see debt as a bind that I would rather avoid. Not saying that everyone should do that but I wanted to.

beach_terror wrote:

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

You're in good shape. Philly is hard for people without ties to break into if you're looking to work there - almost all of my out of state friends left for NYC or other markets after we graduated.

Yeah I have heard others say that regarding Philly as well on this forum. I will keep that in mind. I am not set on practicing in a certain region. I am also open to rural settings. As I said in the above post, I have lived on the West coast my whole life and am looking to strike out into new territory.

pyramidenergy888 wrote:

Borhas wrote:

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

no debt is a great start, especially now that PSLF is in doubt thanks to Trump

We have one guy from Penn State at our PD office (in Colorado). Doesn't mean much I guess as I'd still wager Penn State is more of a regional school. Are you ok with working as a public defender in Pennsylvania for a good chunk of your early career? Philly has a decent office, but I don't know much about anywhere else in the state.

a few other questions
1) is your scholarship GPA contingent?
2) what are your other school options?

Yeah I'm OK with working in Pennsylvania. I'm heading to the area having lived on the West Coast my whole life. It is a big change but I am OK with that.

No conditions on the scholarship. I had a full ride from UIUC (already withdrawn so a bit late to talk about). The issue was that I applied late to UIUC and heard back late. I had visited Penn State already and put down a deposit right before their deadline before I got the UIUC offer. It's OK though. I would have had to borrow some to pay living expenses and I am very debt averse. I just see debt as a bind that I would rather avoid. Not saying that everyone should do that but I wanted to.

all right then, god speed, if you have questions re: becoming a PD let me know via pm. I've been doing this for about 3.5 years now

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Greenteachurro wrote:School: University of Minnesota

Regional Ties: Grew up in the state, went there UG, most of my immediate family is here as well as all of my friends

Goals: Attorney's office for Minneapolis/other local government jobs/ possibly federal govt if everything goes in my favor

Other info: got roughly 75% of instate tuition so COA is probably around 60-70k, K-JD, poly sci major, decent savings and there's a possibility that grandparents will help pay for a decent bit of living expenses.

Yeah, Minnesota is a good choice then. Maybe try and squeeze extra money out of them, but being from MN, a decent scholarship and having realistic goals for jobs makes UMN the best bet

..

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Greenteachurro wrote:

trebekismyhero wrote:

Greenteachurro wrote:School: University of Minnesota

Regional Ties: Grew up in the state, went there UG, most of my immediate family is here as well as all of my friends

Goals: Attorney's office for Minneapolis/other local government jobs/ possibly federal govt if everything goes in my favor

Other info: got roughly 75% of instate tuition so COA is probably around 60-70k, K-JD, poly sci major, decent savings and there's a possibility that grandparents will help pay for a decent bit of living expenses.

Yeah, Minnesota is a good choice then. Maybe try and squeeze extra money out of them, but being from MN, a decent scholarship and having realistic goals for jobs makes UMN the best bet

Nice, how does anyone go about squeeze extra money? Play it off like I'm considering not going at the current price and that in order to go I need some extra? I mean I've already paid the deposit.

At this point you probably won't squeeze more money out of UMN, but that's okay because COA of $60-70k at UMN is a great outcome for your goals (obviously if you were secretly all in on federal government work that would change, but wanting to work in the local government of MN is a sweet spot for UMN at that kind of price).


ETA: Not a practicing attorney, shouldn't be giving advice here. My b.

pyramidenergy888 wrote:OK, here I go.

School: Penn State Dickinson, full tuition plus stipend. Graduating with no debt. SO and some help from family will cover remaining expenses.
Regional Ties: None. Moving fresh from West Coast. Want to live on East Coast.
Goals: Public Defender
Other info: currently work side jobs (Uber, sign spinning, gardening etc.) Studied philosophy, have no debt currently because parents paid for college
I've already deposited and signed a lease but thought I'd open up for a practicing attorney to tell me my choice is bad anyway. lol.

edit: took out some information

One of my colleagues lived in CA, went to USC undergrad and then Dickinson for law school. He was a PD in a central PA county and now is in private practice. PM me and I will get you his contact information.

School: W&M
Regional Ties: None. Moving there from Pennsylvania, don't know anyone practicing law in Virginia
Goals: Working in DC and the surrounding Virginia area is my main goal, and if I can accomplish that I would like to go into government or big law ideally. However, location is the main thing for me.
Other info: I have no debt from college and will be receiving a 15k a year scholarship from W&M. I am also lucky enough that my family will be covering the rest of COA for law school.


It would be nice to hear from a practicing attorney how tough/unfavorable this situation will be for me Thanks in advance.

JGPGH wrote:School: W&M
Regional Ties: None. Moving there from Pennsylvania, don't know anyone practicing law in Virginia
Goals: Working in DC and the surrounding Virginia area is my main goal, and if I can accomplish that I would like to go into government or big law ideally. However, location is the main thing for me.
Other info: I have no debt from college and will be receiving a 15k a year scholarship from W&M. I am also lucky enough that my family will be covering the rest of COA for law school.


It would be nice to hear from a practicing attorney how tough/unfavorable this situation will be for me Thanks in advance.

Practicing attorney here. BigLaw is going to be tough, obviously. But as a whole, I don't think W&M with no debt (yay family!) is a terrible/bad choice at all.

emkay625 wrote:

JGPGH wrote:School: W&M
Regional Ties: None. Moving there from Pennsylvania, don't know anyone practicing law in Virginia
Goals: Working in DC and the surrounding Virginia area is my main goal, and if I can accomplish that I would like to go into government or big law ideally. However, location is the main thing for me.
Other info: I have no debt from college and will be receiving a 15k a year scholarship from W&M. I am also lucky enough that my family will be covering the rest of COA for law school.


It would be nice to hear from a practicing attorney how tough/unfavorable this situation will be for me Thanks in advance.

Practicing attorney here. BigLaw is going to be tough, obviously. But as a whole, I don't think W&M with no debt (yay family!) is a terrible/bad choice at all.

Any insight on what finding government work is like in DC? My passions are in National Security and Immigration, so it would ideally be in those practices but I'm pretty open minded.

JGPGH wrote:

emkay625 wrote:

JGPGH wrote:School: W&M
Regional Ties: None. Moving there from Pennsylvania, don't know anyone practicing law in Virginia
Goals: Working in DC and the surrounding Virginia area is my main goal, and if I can accomplish that I would like to go into government or big law ideally. However, location is the main thing for me.
Other info: I have no debt from college and will be receiving a 15k a year scholarship from W&M. I am also lucky enough that my family will be covering the rest of COA for law school.


It would be nice to hear from a practicing attorney how tough/unfavorable this situation will be for me Thanks in advance.

Practicing attorney here. BigLaw is going to be tough, obviously. But as a whole, I don't think W&M with no debt (yay family!) is a terrible/bad choice at all.

Any insight on what finding government work is like in DC? My passions are in National Security and Immigration, so it would ideally be in those practices but I'm pretty open minded.

No idea what the DC market is like. Sorry!

School: University of Minnesota

Regional Ties: attended UG at UMN, 3 years legal assistant WE in Minneapolis at major company in Minneapolis, grew up in nearby state, minor ties in Chicago

Goals: Mid/Big Law in either Minneapolis or Chicago, also interested in clerking a year

Other info: COA about 100k, pretty cheap cost of living, minor UG student loans (about 10k)