Depressed and Disappointed - 163 LSAT w/ 3.6 GPA Forum

[somewhatwayward]

Retake.

This. I've seen people jump 15+ points on the LSAT. There's no reason you can't push even higher. Get a private tutor for 1 on 1 work if you need to and if you have specific sections that you're doing particularly poor in.

Even getting your score up 3-4 points puts the T14 in your reach. You could be at Cornell with a 166-167.

Do you really think this is possible? I'm sitting on a 3.6/166 and I'm literally praying for any one of the bottom T14.

I think you'd need a 167 minimum to get Cornell with a 3.6. My guess is they are already trying to get their median back to 168, and they aren't going to take a 167 without an above median, if not way above median, GPA attached. No harm in applying and seeing what happens, but if you want T14, I think you will have to retake.

[sequenza]

I would send out some applications as a back up plan. However, why not retake the Feb. LSAT? You really have nothing to lose and I am sure you could break the top 20 with ajust few more points on your LSAT score. Good Luck

[quiver]

OP, I feel for your situation. Personally, I'd apply to all three NJ schools and all NY schools from Fordham on down (including SUNY Buffalo). See who gives you the most money, maybe try to negotiate with the others, and go to the place that leaves you with the least debt. Most likely, SUNY or Rutgers with in-state will be the best deal but Seton Hall or Brooklyn might surprise you with hefty scholarships.

If you really enjoyed what you're doing now then maybe my answer would be different (i.e., wait to retake). Just be wary of what you're walking into: the job prospects out of the schools are not good. Little or no debt would give you breathing room though, and if you're happy being in NY/NJ then I think this is the way to go.

[kjones0127]

Suffolk/Northeastern/BC/BU/Fordham/American/GWU/Villanova/Drexel/Fordham/U. Pitt/Penn State
Syracuse/Rutgers/Univ. Buffalo/Catholic/Seton Hall

Those are dont just off the top of my head, but you have plenty of options. Just because they aren't T-20 doesn't mean you won't end up anywhere.

You're already made connections in the legal field because of where you work now. So you have decent soft factors that will factor in that you aren't considering.

[rad lulz]

Suffolk/Northeastern/BC/BU/Fordham/American/GWU/Villanova/Drexel/Fordham/U. Pitt/Penn State
Syracuse/Rutgers/Univ. Buffalo/Catholic/Seton Hall

Those are dont just off the top of my head, but you have plenty of options. Just because they aren't T-20 doesn't mean you won't end up anywhere.

You're already made connections in the legal field because of where you work now. So you have decent soft factors that will factor in that you aren't considering.

The only schools I'd go to on that list are BC, BU, Fordham, and GW on MASSIVE scholarship, which OP won't get given his numbers.

[BigZuck]

Suffolk/Northeastern/BC/BU/Fordham/American/GWU/Villanova/Drexel/Fordham/U. Pitt/Penn State
Syracuse/Rutgers/Univ. Buffalo/Catholic/Seton Hall

Those are dont just off the top of my head, but you have plenty of options. Just because they aren't T-20 doesn't mean you won't end up anywhere.

You're already made connections in the legal field because of where you work now. So you have decent soft factors that will factor in that you aren't considering.

The only schools I'd go to on that list are BC, BU, Fordham, and GW on MASSIVE scholarship, which OP won't get given his numbers.

Rad, what is your scholarship at Vanderbilt? Just trying to get some perspective on what scholarships at what schools are worth it and what aren't.

OP I think you need to wait it out and keep on retaking until you can get yourself a school/scholarship that is worth it. If you can't/won't do that then you are, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, disqualified.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'm not getting any younger, I can't do anything with my bachelors degree, and my life is feeling more pathetic by the minute.

This is normal post-college shit you're feeling, but law school is not the answer. It's just a way to punt your angst but you'll be making things worse in the long run. It is not going to solve anything and may make things substantially worse.

If you must go, wait and retake.

[nedzilla]

I had a friend who just is not good at standardized tests and could not get out of the 150s on the LSAT. Ended up going to New York Law for one year, worked his ass off and transfered into GW Law school for his second and third year, graduated got a great job in NYC and just passed the bar.

dont give up, you never know, if its something you want there was ways to get it just work your butt off to make it happen.

just make sure you really want it.

[Circlewave]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

[rad lulz]

I had a friend who just is not good at standardized tests and could not get out of the 150s on the LSAT. Ended up going to New York Law for one year, worked his ass off and transfered into GW Law school for his second and third year, graduated got a great job in NYC and just passed the bar.

dont give up, you never know, if its something you want there was ways to get it just work your butt off to make it happen.

just make sure you really want it.

Yeah bro everyone can just win the transfer lottery. Got it.

[rad lulz]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

Why do people assume that biglaw is the only competitive area in which to get a legal job. At least someone with good grades from a T14 school can be pretty sure they can land biglaw. Some of these smaller firms hire as needed and/or don't advertise positions. Local govts tend to be broke and don't hire many people. Govt. jobs that had high turnover have seen turnover decrease as people hold on to those jobs for dear life.

[seancris]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

Why do people assume that biglaw is the only competitive area in which to get a legal job. At least someone with good grades from a T14 school can be pretty sure they can land biglaw. Some of these smaller firms hire as needed and/or don't advertise positions. Local govts tend to be broke and don't hire many people. Govt. jobs that had high turnover have seen turnover decrease as people hold on to those jobs for dear life.

Don't think anyone assumes that. But even many T3 schools have 55%+ employment rates in full-time JD req work. I think the real point is the obvious one- that legal jobs are attainable even outside the T14. You don't have to be depressed about your 163, but you should adjust your strategy to minimize debts.

[TheJanitor6203]

Check out your results on lawschoolpredictor.com if you haven't already. You get a strong consider at U of Maryland and an admit at American University. Granted they aren't T14 but they are still T1 schools. I think if law is something that you really want to pursue, don't let not getting into a T14 stop you. Are you going to get a job making 6 figures out of law school? No, but you can still get a job. Three members of my family are practicing lawyers and none of them went to T14 schools. Hell, none of them went to good schools at all! lol All TTT schools and they all have jobs. Two of them just graduated a year ago (May 2011). You will survive. If this is really what you want to do, do it. This website has a lot of good information but I think they hype over T14 schools is a little over played. Regardless of what you do, good luck to you!

[rad lulz]

Janitor, your poast is the stupidest thing I've read in ages.

Check out your results on lawschoolpredictor.com if you haven't already. You get a strong consider at U of Maryland and an admit at American University. Granted they aren't T14 but they are still T1 schools.

LOL T1 is a meaningless distinction.

I think if law is something that you really want to pursue, don't let not getting into a T14 stop you. Are you going to get a job making 6 figures out of law school? No, but you can still get a job.

From American and UMD, you can, if you come out on the right side of a coin flip. Oh wait, actually it's even worse than a coin flip.

American - 35% in real legal jobs

UMD - 47% in real legal jobs

Three members of my family are practicing lawyers and none of them went to T14 schools. Hell, none of them went to good schools at all! lol All TTT schools and they all have jobs. Two of them just graduated a year ago (May 2011). You will survive. If this is really what you want to do, do it. This website has a lot of good information but I think they hype over T14 schools is a little over played. Regardless of what you do, good luck to you!

Disregard statistics, acquire anecdotes.

[Circlewave]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

Why do people assume that biglaw is the only competitive area in which to get a legal job. At least someone with good grades from a T14 school can be pretty sure they can land biglaw. Some of these smaller firms hire as needed and/or don't advertise positions. Local govts tend to be broke and don't hire many people. Govt. jobs that had high turnover have seen turnover decrease as people hold on to those jobs for dear life.

i recognize that; i meant to express that if OP is that firmly set on going to law school, he might as well apply, because he'll get in a lot of places.

[rad lulz]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

Why do people assume that biglaw is the only competitive area in which to get a legal job. At least someone with good grades from a T14 school can be pretty sure they can land biglaw. Some of these smaller firms hire as needed and/or don't advertise positions. Local govts tend to be broke and don't hire many people. Govt. jobs that had high turnover have seen turnover decrease as people hold on to those jobs for dear life.

i recognize that; i meant to express that if OP is that firmly set on going to law school, he might as well apply, because he'll get in a lot of places.

Being firmly set on going to law school when you have mediocre numbers and nothing else going for you (dad who can get you hired, etc.) is the height of retardation. Just getting in to law school doesn't mean jack crap.

[lurknolonger]

First off, I apologize for taking this long to respond to my own thread.

Secondly, I would like to thank everyone for their feedback however positive/negative or sarcastic/kind.

I understand all perspectives and approaches displayed throughout this thread. As a long time lurker, I had a pretty solid foresight of what was to come of my post.

Taking everyone's advice into consideration here is my plan.

I am going to blanket a lot of schools that have interested me, within my respective numbers range. While I can already dismiss many of these based off of prospective job outlooks, potential lack of scholarship, and abysmal COA, it cant hurt to send out an app.

If upon receiving my offers I am not pleased with my results, I will withdraw and wait to retake the LSAT. Barring a good scholarship to a regional school or a low-stip full ride, you will most likely find me on the LSAT prep board.

Here is my list plus my thought-process, let me know if anyone recommends another school I should add:

University of Minnesota Law School - (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University - (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)

Rutgers Camden - (Regional + Instate - Scholarship)
Rutgers Newark - (Regional +Instate - Scholarship)
SUNY Buffalo Law School - (Regional + Instate - Scholarship)
University of Richmond School of Law - (Regional - Scholarship - Environment)

St. John's University School of Law (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)
Seton Hall University School of Law (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)

Boston College Law School - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)
Washington and Lee University School of Law - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)
William & Mary Law School - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)

Fordham University School of Law - (Why Not? - Curious)

[lurknolonger]

i have stats pretty similar to those; i applied. granted, i'm not a biglaw-or-bust guy. there's a lot of schools that could be attended relatively cheaply with those numbers.

Why do people assume that biglaw is the only competitive area in which to get a legal job. At least someone with good grades from a T14 school can be pretty sure they can land biglaw. Some of these smaller firms hire as needed and/or don't advertise positions. Local govts tend to be broke and don't hire many people. Govt. jobs that had high turnover have seen turnover decrease as people hold on to those jobs for dear life.

i recognize that; i meant to express that if OP is that firmly set on going to law school, he might as well apply, because he'll get in a lot of places.

Being firmly set on going to law school when you have mediocre numbers and nothing else going for you (dad who can get you hired, etc.) is the height of retardation. Just getting in to law school doesn't mean jack crap.

So you are inferring that someone who has a love/desire to practice law is a retard because he is planning on attending law school? Scoring a 163 on the lsat places you around the 88-90th percentile. This must mean that anyone who went to law school with lower numbers all made a retarded decision?

I respect your strong desire to scare people away from making a bad life choice, but I think you are taking it a bit too far with this remark.

[TheJanitor6203]

Janitor, your poast is the stupidest thing I've read in ages.

Check out your results on lawschoolpredictor.com if you haven't already. You get a strong consider at U of Maryland and an admit at American University. Granted they aren't T14 but they are still T1 schools.

LOL T1 is a meaningless distinction.

I think if law is something that you really want to pursue, don't let not getting into a T14 stop you. Are you going to get a job making 6 figures out of law school? No, but you can still get a job.

From American and UMD, you can, if you come out on the right side of a coin flip. Oh wait, actually it's even worse than a coin flip.

American - 35% in real legal jobs

UMD - 47% in real legal jobs

Three members of my family are practicing lawyers and none of them went to T14 schools. Hell, none of them went to good schools at all! lol All TTT schools and they all have jobs. Two of them just graduated a year ago (May 2011). You will survive. If this is really what you want to do, do it. This website has a lot of good information but I think they hype over T14 schools is a little over played. Regardless of what you do, good luck to you!

Disregard statistics, acquire anecdotes.

Yes, I get all of that. My point is, the OP really wants to go to law school and sounds like he would be happy practicing law regardless. So if that is the case, then he should go. And yes, the percentages are good to look at but that isn't the end all of it. Of the three people in my family who are practicing law one went to school in the 90's and can't really be considered in this but the other two both graduated a year ago from Oklahoma City University (unranked). One has a job with Bank of America and the other is working at a 8 lawyer litigation firm in Dallas. The odds were against them but they got jobs.

[somewhatwayward]

Janitor, your poast is the stupidest thing I've read in ages.

Check out your results on lawschoolpredictor.com if you haven't already. You get a strong consider at U of Maryland and an admit at American University. Granted they aren't T14 but they are still T1 schools.

LOL T1 is a meaningless distinction.

I think if law is something that you really want to pursue, don't let not getting into a T14 stop you. Are you going to get a job making 6 figures out of law school? No, but you can still get a job.

From American and UMD, you can, if you come out on the right side of a coin flip. Oh wait, actually it's even worse than a coin flip.

American - 35% in real legal jobs

UMD - 47% in real legal jobs

Three members of my family are practicing lawyers and none of them went to T14 schools. Hell, none of them went to good schools at all! lol All TTT schools and they all have jobs. Two of them just graduated a year ago (May 2011). You will survive. If this is really what you want to do, do it. This website has a lot of good information but I think they hype over T14 schools is a little over played. Regardless of what you do, good luck to you!

Disregard statistics, acquire anecdotes.

Yes, I get all of that. My point is, the OP really wants to go to law school and sounds like he would be happy practicing law regardless. So if that is the case, then he should go. And yes, the percentages are good to look at but that isn't the end all of it. Of the three people in my family who are practicing law one went to school in the 90's and can't really be considered in this but the other two both graduated a year ago from Oklahoma City University (unranked). One has a job with Bank of America and the other is working at a 8 lawyer litigation firm in Dallas. The odds were against them but they got jobs.

Your assumptions are showing.

You are assuming that OP will be able to get a job. You can't be happy practicing law if you never even get the opportunity to practice law. You also probably can't be happy practicing law if you are doing doc review or ID with 200K in debt because you landed in the bottom half at W&L or American or Maryland. Honestly, I think American might be the biggest dung heap in the entire country because it has atrocious employment statistics but somehow attracts people with its "T1" preftige. Employment out of schools like TJSOL is also terrible but at least you don't have people coming on here saying that they were thinking of taking the scholarship at Phoenix but didn't want to give up the preftige of TJSOL. /rant

No one is telling OP not to go to law school. We are telling OP to hold out for a good deal whether that is a school with very good employment outcomes or whether that is a school on the cheap. A decidedly terrible outcome would be to choose a low T1 at sticker over the full-ride at Rutgers. A moderately terrible outcome is choosing the full-ride at Rutgers over retaking.

[Circlewave]

I applied to one of your 'long shot' schools; assuming medians and applicants decline or at the very least, hold steady, you're by no means an auto-ding. If anything, you're actually around median. Your LSAT puts you at the 87th percentile if you took Oct 2012. You can get in somewhere, and you can get a job. Be positive, buddy

Edit: of course that's if you work hard, get whatever %, blah blah blah etc.

[dirtrida2]

First off, I apologize for taking this long to respond to my own thread.

Secondly, I would like to thank everyone for their feedback however positive/negative or sarcastic/kind.

I understand all perspectives and approaches displayed throughout this thread. As a long time lurker, I had a pretty solid foresight of what was to come of my post.

Taking everyone's advice into consideration here is my plan.

I am going to blanket a lot of schools that have interested me, within my respective numbers range. While I can already dismiss many of these based off of prospective job outlooks, potential lack of scholarship, and abysmal COA, it cant hurt to send out an app.

If upon receiving my offers I am not pleased with my results, I will withdraw and wait to retake the LSAT. Barring a good scholarship to a regional school or a low-stip full ride, you will most likely find me on the LSAT prep board.

Here is my list plus my thought-process, let me know if anyone recommends another school I should add:

University of Minnesota Law School - (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University - (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)

Rutgers Camden - (Regional + Instate - Scholarship)
Rutgers Newark - (Regional +Instate - Scholarship)
SUNY Buffalo Law School - (Regional + Instate - Scholarship)
University of Richmond School of Law - (Regional - Scholarship - Environment)

St. John's University School of Law (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)
Seton Hall University School of Law (Fee Waiver - Bargaining Chip)

Boston College Law School - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)
Washington and Lee University School of Law - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)
William & Mary Law School - (Long Shot - Love the Area/School)

Fordham University School of Law - (Why Not? - Curious)

Not a bad list, just please don't attend any of these schools at sticker. If one of the regionals gives you a fat scholly then go for it, but if you have any doubts just wait it out and retake.

GL

[objection_your_honor]

I took the LSAT for the first time this October at age 26. I am retaking in June 2013 — a month later I will turn 27.

Two years may seem like a lot now, but think about the benefits of a higher score. You can't justify riding that 163 and calling it quits now.

[m1kex]

I think that this is all too crazy. The majority of the population can't even get into the 160s, and you're depressed because you scored a 163? So what if a T14 won't take you? Since when is that the end of the world? Since when does a T14 determine your future. Dude, look in terms of the long run. Stop wasting your time. Get into a law school, graduate, take the bar, become a lawyer and then work your ass off. Become your own man, become successful. a T14 won't make or break you. I know a guy who graduated Brooklyn Law School who is a millionaire and a guy who went to Harvard for undergrad and Georgetown for Law School and reconsidered his career, decided he wanted to be a doctor, is currently taking undergrad prereqs at Hunter, and is tutoring to earn his living. So, I mean... what is this depressed stuff? The future is in your hands. I'm highly against spending another 2 years to try and re-take the test instead of spending those two years at an accelerated JD program for example. I don't know who your mentors are in life, but bro. Stop obsessing. Get your shit together and head in the game, and GO. TO. LAW. SCHOOL.

[sittykitty]

I think that this is all too crazy. The majority of the population can't even get into the 160s, and you're depressed because you scored a 163? So what if a T14 won't take you? Since when is that the end of the world? Since when does a T14 determine your future. Dude, look in terms of the long run. Stop wasting your time. Get into a law school, graduate, take the bar, become a lawyer and then work your ass off. Become your own man, become successful. a T14 won't make or break you. I know a guy who graduated Brooklyn Law School who is a millionaire and a guy who went to Harvard for undergrad and Georgetown for Law School and reconsidered his career, decided he wanted to be a doctor, is currently taking undergrad prereqs at Hunter, and is tutoring to earn his living. So, I mean... what is this depressed stuff? The future is in your hands. I'm highly against spending another 2 years to try and re-take the test instead of spending those two years at an accelerated JD program for example. I don't know who your mentors are in life, but bro. Stop obsessing. Get your shit together and head in the game, and GO. TO. LAW. SCHOOL.

Dude this thread is from 2012