OSU v. George Mason Forum

[Incubateus]

I'm pretty sure that the full Pm read something like this:

Do me a favor and stop responding with douche bag remarks, I'm actually trying to get information from people who have first hand experience with either school

Thanks

Yeah, so you called me a douche, which admittedly I was being but also admittedly you're being a hot-headed a-hole that is pulling justifications out of thin air. i.e. Median grades = median salary. Which really signify to the rest of us that you haven't done your due diligence. You also think that GMU is going to place you in DC because you'll be there. But FYI, American, Catholic et. al. tell you the same thing (oh but you'll be here in the Fall/Spring when no one else will and by the way, others will. GW and GTown have ginormous classes including their PT programs and all those people are also in DC over the fall/spring). Literally, just about everyone in DC has a JD. Barrista JD, Waiter JD, Cap Hill job JD, Piercing Pagoda JD, Sunglass Hut JD. What makes you think you'll be the odd ball out?

And if you're so convinced that you'll be the odd one out and end up with median salary because your grades will be Median at GMU then why are you looking for validation on this board?

All we're trying to say is DO YOUR RESEARCH and GET SOME SENSE. You're about to make a horrible mistake. One that you can fix preemptively. And not taking this advice would make you stoopid.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just trying to be persistent enough to get a real response which you just started on. I don't think I'll be the odd one out. And actually if someone could poke holes in the "working during the spring and fall part through externships" I'd love to hear it, honestly. I just don't think the "everyone has a jd argument" is valid in the way you described it. I mean, from my understanding, firms will generally hire SAs through law school students and not people who have been out of school for a while and not working in a legal job. That being said, if you have numbers that compare vacancies vs students in the area I'd love to hear about them, but no one has given a backed-up argument other than "everyone has it and you're not special". I don't assume to be special, but please enlighten me.

And on the research note: The "median=/= median" thing is worthless. It could be true, it could not be. The reason I said in the original post that it didn't matter is because there isn't enough info. You honestly can't assume in either direction. I know more about these law schools than a lot of the people who work in the admissions offices. I know the facts. I've read almost all of the books regarding law school decisions and a good bit of the articles that are published. I'm just looking for someone to actually poke holes in the arguments and give me a "this is why OSU is better than GMU" or vice versa.

TatteredDignity: I think I have a solid shot out of GMU for several reasons. One of which is the professors. Josh Wright, Zywicki, Soman, etc. are all experts in the field and have connections. I've heard from students that they are more than willing to help people out by sending your resume to their friends. I also know that the dual degree in econ is a possibility, and GMU's econ department is stellar. Whether or not it would be worth the cost/benefit ratio I have yet to decide. And even past all of that, I'm not going to try and corner myself into one field. I would be fine doing any sort of litigation (med mal, civil, criminal, etc.). In my prior work experience I've worked on contracts (specifically ISP98 and UCC500 Standby Letters of Credit). I didn't really like the paper pushing aspect of that, but the formulation was interesting so I would be willing to go back into a more intellectualized version of that. And the money thing isn't as huge for me as everyone inflates it to be. I've been an adult for a while and can honestly say that, while it would be nice to go to a school for free, money is not a concern in the long run. Debts are eventually paid off and maybe a pinch at times, but it is rarely nowhere near the pain of having to slug through a career with no pleasure whatsoever. Having already paid off my UG debt and things like mortgages and car payments etc., I can speak from experience on that subject.

I've gotta get to work. If anyone can poke holes or provide some insight, I'd appreciate it.

[flem]

Sounds like you know everything there is to know! Good luck in your future academic endeavors.

[TatteredDignity]

TatteredDignity: I think I have a solid shot out of GMU for several reasons. One of which is the professors. Josh Wright, Zywicki, Soman, etc. are all experts in the field and have connections. I've heard from students that they are more than willing to help people out by sending your resume to their friends. I also know that the dual degree in econ is a possibility, and GMU's econ department is stellar. Whether or not it would be worth the cost/benefit ratio I have yet to decide.

Are you aware if this cachet or willingness to send our resumes results in jobs? Otherwise, it's an empty gesture.

[JoeMo]

The size of the 1L class at GW is roughly 500 students (545-550 is closer to actual number)

GeorgeTown is closer to 600.

That's 1100 people that you'll be competing with that are already at a school that is ranked better than yours. That has more lay prestige than yours and one of them is a T14.

Do you really think that there are that many positions in the SA classes in DC to support that heavy a load? Kids at GTown are having a tough time in this economy because their degrees are not as commutable to other areas as some of the other T14 schools but they can at least take their degrees pretty much all over the east coast. GW is doing slightly worse. But you still think that GMU can offer you better options?

Your median thing and saying there isn't enough information just shows that you haven't been looking at the information objectively. There has been research that has shown that the people that respond are normally people that were at the top of their class and/or are the highest earners. Thus, if say the $90k median salary for GMU is based on 60% of the class responding, you can assume that a good chunk of that comes from kids with above median grades. That means that the median you're looking at is somewhere closer to the 75th percentile when you take the whole class into account and the probability of you ending up with that scenario is not that great. Not because it's you but because it's the nature of the beast.

We're all a bunch of type a personalities. We've all been the best at what we've always done (give and take a few people). But we're guaranteed that half of us will end up below median.

Also, as someone else mentioned the majority of jobs come from summer associates. When you have all of the top schools looking to place people in DC the summer associates come from all over the country, not just from DC. During the rest of the year, these same firms could use the free labor so they turn to the Catholics, GMU's, Americans of the world. They might take a few people from those programs but they're not going to do it at the expense of not offering their summer associates. Most firms want to be able to keep their offers to summer associates at or near 100%. That's why it's commonplace to think that wherever you end up 2L summer is where you'll end up early in your career.

[bdole2]

I'll tell you what OP, I'll cut you a deal:

For a mere $40,000 (less than half of the cheapest of your current options) my friend Karl Weathers and I will teach you everything we know about the law.

Of the other prospective 1Ls we have offered this exclusive service to, NONE of them have failed the bar exam in any state! And not one of our graduates that passed the bar are making less than 100k a year.

So hurry now! Limited time offer!

[lifestooquick]

OP - do you want BigLaw? or firm work at all? Just checking because that's basically the only area that TLS focuses on in their responses. If you don't, then it's a bit of a different perspective.

I understand where you're coming from. The views on here can be frustrating sometimes but part of that is because they are true and worth considering. However, I don't subscribe to the idea that TLS is the be-all, end-all of information about law school. Read what everyone has to say (taken with a grain of salt) and truly mull it over.

In the end, you're decision will be yours alone - just know that you made it with the most information possible.

[rad lulz]

.

[Incubateus]

The size of the 1L class at GW is roughly 500 students (545-550 is closer to actual number)

GeorgeTown is closer to 600.

That's 1100 people that you'll be competing with that are already at a school that is ranked better than yours. That has more lay prestige than yours and one of them is a T14.

Do you really think that there are that many positions in the SA classes in DC to support that heavy a load? Kids at GTown are having a tough time in this economy because their degrees are not as commutable to other areas as some of the other T14 schools but they can at least take their degrees pretty much all over the east coast. GW is doing slightly worse. But you still think that GMU can offer you better options?

Your median thing and saying there isn't enough information just shows that you haven't been looking at the information objectively. There has been research that has shown that the people that respond are normally people that were at the top of their class and/or are the highest earners. Thus, if say the $90k median salary for GMU is based on 60% of the class responding, you can assume that a good chunk of that comes from kids with above median grades. That means that the median you're looking at is somewhere closer to the 75th percentile when you take the whole class into account and the probability of you ending up with that scenario is not that great. Not because it's you but because it's the nature of the beast.

We're all a bunch of type a personalities. We've all been the best at what we've always done (give and take a few people). But we're guaranteed that half of us will end up below median.

Also, as someone else mentioned the majority of jobs come from summer associates. When you have all of the top schools looking to place people in DC the summer associates come from all over the country, not just from DC. During the rest of the year, these same firms could use the free labor so they turn to the Catholics, GMU's, Americans of the world. They might take a few people from those programs but they're not going to do it at the expense of not offering their summer associates. Most firms want to be able to keep their offers to summer associates at or near 100%. That's why it's commonplace to think that wherever you end up 2L summer is where you'll end up early in your career.

Do you have that research on medians and response rates? I'd like to look at it.
Also, I didn't know that about SAs. As I understood it, Being an associate/intern with them at all was the key that got you through the firm door that led to the offer. I might be wrong, but I've never heard the fall and spring internships compared with a summer associateship. I figured that the biggest part of getting the position was letting them see your work ethic and intelligence. If you have any articles related to this I would absolutely be interested in reading them.

BTW, those were exactly the types of holes I was looking for. I'm not looking to make a stupid decision (as a lot of people seem to think my goal is). I'm just trying to figure out holes in my plans to attend one or the other so I can make a fully informed decision.

[Incubateus]

I'll tell you what OP, I'll cut you a deal:

For a mere $40,000 (less than half of the cheapest of your current options) my friend Karl Weathers and I will teach you everything we know about the law.

Of the other prospective 1Ls we have offered this exclusive service to, NONE of them have failed the bar exam in any state! And not one of our graduates that passed the bar are making less than 100k a year.

So hurry now! Limited time offer!

If it's a boxing class, I'm in. Meet me on the boardwalk for the money.

[Incubateus]

OP - do you want BigLaw? or firm work at all? Just checking because that's basically the only area that TLS focuses on in their responses. If you don't, then it's a bit of a different perspective.

I understand where you're coming from. The views on here can be frustrating sometimes but part of that is because they are true and worth considering. However, I don't subscribe to the idea that TLS is the be-all, end-all of information about law school. Read what everyone has to say (taken with a grain of salt) and truly mull it over.

In the end, you're decision will be yours alone - just know that you made it with the most information possible.

I would honestly be fine with any situation. I know it sounds nuts but I fully understand the limitations of what GMU or OSU would get me. Big Law would probably be more of a pain than I want, but when that type of money calls it's hard to say no. A boutique firm would probably be ideal, but those odds are even slimmer. I would be fine at a company as GC or at the IRS or FDIC or FTC etc. Even at a small firm I could see the upsides. I've seen most of the responses and understand that it is all big law centric, but I don't really have another law school forum with as much input. I guess some idealistic part of me was just hoping that people on TLS would suspend their biglaw/gunner philosophies for just a moment to respond to my solicitation for information.

[rad lulz]

.

[buckilaw]

If you assume median placement out of GMU or OSU, you would assume median salary. Which for GMU would be 90k or so (the response rate makes everything iffy) and for OSU it would be just around 80k. Both of which aren't as devastating as you make the 60k sound. And again, don't discount the bonuses and raises over ten years. These are all pretty much inconclusive though because there just isn't enough information.

And I'm not plugging my ears. It's just that everything on this website has the same carbon copy response -- and there are definitely holes in not only the answer, but the philosophy that money and prestige should be the biggest factors when considering a school. I agree that prestige will open more doors and thus more freedom and happiness, and that debt is a chain to freedom also, but it doesn't preclude going at all and still being happy. If you've actually gone out and worked another job (not in the "let's burn a few years before law school", but in the "this is my lifelong career" mindset) you will quickly understand that even with debt and limited opportunities, the right or wrong career choice can be a far greater burden to bear.

And I haven't "made my decision JamesChapman23", and I'm not looking for justification or confirmation. I'm looking for realistic insights to both schools from students or alumni, or people who have some sort of scope that breaks through all of the bullshit out there. Information like that would actually help me make a decision.

Ya. Legal salaries are bi-model. You will either make 30-60k or 160. There are very few jobs with salaries between these two peaks.

[romothesavior]

I would honestly be fine with any situation. I know it sounds nuts but I fully understand the limitations of what GMU or OSU would get me. Big Law would probably be more of a pain than I want, but when that type of money calls it's hard to say no. A boutique firm would probably be ideal, but those odds are even slimmer. I would be fine at a company as GC or at the IRS or FDIC or FTC etc. Even at a small firm I could see the upsides. I've seen most of the responses and understand that it is all big law centric, but I don't really have another law school forum with as much input. I guess some idealistic part of me was just hoping that people on TLS would suspend their biglaw/gunner philosophies for just a moment to respond to my solicitation for information.

1. You realize "IRS or FDIC or FTC" and GC of a company are probably harder to get out of law school than biglaw right? And they are generally going to require biglaw experience to lateral into them? You do know this, correct? If so, why are you letting their presence in D.C. drive your decision when you've already admitted you don't care about biglaw?

2. It's not all biglaw-centric advice on here. But when you are taking out two-hundred thousand dollars of debt, we can more or less bet that you'll be begging for biglaw in two years. If you weren't going into debt, I'd be the first person to tell you to follow your career path wherever you wish. That's the beauty of low debt; you have freedom to do what you want. But when someone is taking out a small mortgage on a home to go to law school, then yeah... no shit the discussion is going to turn to high-salaried jobs.

3. If you are "fine with any situation," then why are you so intent to moving to D.C. for the "D.C. lifestyle" and "D.C. work?" You are almost certainly gonna be doing the same level of mundane, low-paying work in D.C. as you would be doing in Ohio. Yes, D.C. has big fed, powerhouse litigation, quality regulatory work, and Capital Hill. Problem is, the odds of getting that kind of stuff are lower than your odds of biglaw, or at the very least, essentially require you to get biglaw, which you concede are very low odds to begin with. So just save your dough and go to Ohio. Your flippant attitude towards jobs doesn't really coincide with your stated reasons for wanting GMU.

[buckilaw]

I'm pretty sure that the full Pm read something like this:

Do me a favor and stop responding with douche bag remarks, I'm actually trying to get information from people who have first hand experience with either school

Thanks

Yeah, so you called me a douche, which admittedly I was being but also admittedly you're being a hot-headed a-hole that is pulling justifications out of thin air. i.e. Median grades = median salary. Which really signify to the rest of us that you haven't done your due diligence. You also think that GMU is going to place you in DC because you'll be there. But FYI, American, Catholic et. al. tell you the same thing (oh but you'll be here in the Fall/Spring when no one else will and by the way, others will. GW and GTown have ginormous classes including their PT programs and all those people are also in DC over the fall/spring). Literally, just about everyone in DC has a JD. Barrista JD, Waiter JD, Cap Hill job JD, Piercing Pagoda JD, Sunglass Hut JD. What makes you think you'll be the odd ball out?

And if you're so convinced that you'll be the odd one out and end up with median salary because your grades will be Median at GMU then why are you looking for validation on this board?

All we're trying to say is DO YOUR RESEARCH and GET SOME SENSE. You're about to make a horrible mistake. One that you can fix preemptively. And not taking this advice would make you stoopid.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just trying to be persistent enough to get a real response which you just started on. I don't think I'll be the odd one out. And actually if someone could poke holes in the "working during the spring and fall part through externships" I'd love to hear it, honestly. I just don't think the "everyone has a jd argument" is valid in the way you described it. I mean, from my understanding, firms will generally hire SAs through law school students and not people who have been out of school for a while and not working in a legal job. That being said, if you have numbers that compare vacancies vs students in the area I'd love to hear about them, but no one has given a backed-up argument other than "everyone has it and you're not special". I don't assume to be special, but please enlighten me.

And on the research note: The "median=/= median" thing is worthless. It could be true, it could not be. The reason I said in the original post that it didn't matter is because there isn't enough info. You honestly can't assume in either direction. I know more about these law schools than a lot of the people who work in the admissions offices. I know the facts. I've read almost all of the books regarding law school decisions and a good bit of the articles that are published. I'm just looking for someone to actually poke holes in the arguments and give me a "this is why OSU is better than GMU" or vice versa.

TatteredDignity: I think I have a solid shot out of GMU for several reasons. One of which is the professors. Josh Wright, Zywicki, Soman, etc. are all experts in the field and have connections. I've heard from students that they are more than willing to help people out by sending your resume to their friends. I also know that the dual degree in econ is a possibility, and GMU's econ department is stellar. Whether or not it would be worth the cost/benefit ratio I have yet to decide. And even past all of that, I'm not going to try and corner myself into one field. I would be fine doing any sort of litigation (med mal, civil, criminal, etc.). In my prior work experience I've worked on contracts (specifically ISP98 and UCC500 Standby Letters of Credit). I didn't really like the paper pushing aspect of that, but the formulation was interesting so I would be willing to go back into a more intellectualized version of that. And the money thing isn't as huge for me as everyone inflates it to be. I've been an adult for a while and can honestly say that, while it would be nice to go to a school for free, money is not a concern in the long run. Debts are eventually paid off and maybe a pinch at times, but it is rarely nowhere near the pain of having to slug through a career with no pleasure whatsoever. Having already paid off my UG debt and things like mortgages and car payments etc., I can speak from experience on that subject.

I've gotta get to work. If anyone can poke holes or provide some insight, I'd appreciate it.

I'm now convinced you are a troll.

[Incubateus]

I would honestly be fine with any situation. I know it sounds nuts but I fully understand the limitations of what GMU or OSU would get me. Big Law would probably be more of a pain than I want, but when that type of money calls it's hard to say no. A boutique firm would probably be ideal, but those odds are even slimmer. I would be fine at a company as GC or at the IRS or FDIC or FTC etc. Even at a small firm I could see the upsides. I've seen most of the responses and understand that it is all big law centric, but I don't really have another law school forum with as much input. I guess some idealistic part of me was just hoping that people on TLS would suspend their biglaw/gunner philosophies for just a moment to respond to my solicitation for information.

1. You realize "IRS or FDIC or FTC" and GC of a company are probably harder to get out of law school than biglaw right? And they are generally going to require biglaw experience to lateral into them? You do know this, correct? If so, why are you letting their presence in D.C. drive your decision when you've already admitted you don't care about biglaw?

2. It's not all biglaw-centric advice on here. But when you are taking out two-hundred thousand dollars of debt, we can more or less bet that you'll be begging for biglaw in two years. If you weren't going into debt, I'd be the first person to tell you to follow your career path wherever you wish. That's the beauty of low debt; you have freedom to do what you want. But when someone is taking out a small mortgage on a home to go to law school, then yeah... no shit the discussion is going to turn to high-salaried jobs.

3. If you are "fine with any situation," then why are you so intent to moving to D.C. for the "D.C. lifestyle" and "D.C. work?" You are almost certainly gonna be doing the same level of mundane, low-paying work in D.C. as you would be doing in Ohio. Yes, D.C. has big fed, powerhouse litigation, quality regulatory work, and Capital Hill. Problem is, the odds of getting that kind of stuff are lower than your odds of biglaw, or at the very least, essentially require you to get biglaw, which you concede are very low odds to begin with. So just save your dough and go to Ohio. Your flippant attitude towards jobs doesn't really coincide with your stated reasons for wanting GMU.

1. I would disagree on the Fed being much harder than biglaw. That is purely anecdotal though (although from a large group). One kid I know from GMU who graduated just above the median went to work for the IRS General Counsel, another girl from GMU I know has a paid SA for 1L at another federal office. From my understanding they both got those options from their externships. I do know about 15 others who are in a similar boat.

2. I feel that a lot of people on here are trying to get that debt off within ten years and assume that if it can't be done they feel like they would just drown in it. I'm not like that. I understand how to deal with long haul debt obligations.

3.My attitudes towards jobs are flippant. I'm just not an idiot. I understand that I have to be flexible with certain restraints that my degree will have. I feel it's better to learn how to deal with that than be an idealist and assume I will get biglaw.

And another not, assuming I'll be fine with large debt does not mean I'm assuming I'll get biglaw. And if you're going to laugh at that please go back to my post about me being alright with paying debt over a longer period of time.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. The legal salaries being bimodal. Does that include working for a company say in their legal department? I do know a good handful of people making 80k or so in those positions. Again, from the stats I've seen that seems to be a supported conclusion.

[romothesavior]

1. I would disagree on the Fed being much harder than biglaw. That is purely anecdotal though (although from a large group). One kid I know from GMU who graduated just above the median went to work for the IRS General Counsel, another girl from GMU I know has a paid SA for 1L at another federal office. From my understanding they both got those options from their externships. I do know about 15 others who are in a similar boat.

...

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. The legal salaries being bimodal. Does that include working for a company say in their legal department? I do know a good handful of people making 80k or so in those positions. Again, from the stats I've seen that seems to be a supported conclusion.

I don't mean to be an asshole or harp on you (seems like I am), but your friends and acquaintances must be big hitters. Almost every person I have ever met or heard of going in-house did so after a biglaw stint. To do it out of law school is almost unheard of these days. I know of one company (an insurance company) that had a summer program in the past, but it was put on hold indefinitely as a result of the bad economy. Every person I know working in-house this summer or last summer was told explicitly that there was no shot at full-time employment, and they told me that almost every lawyer they encountered had worked in biglaw before lateraling in-house

Further, GMU must have the best federal job placement in the country. You know 15 people who got permanent full-time job offers for federal government jobs fresh out of law school ITE? Wow, that is insane. Unless, of course, you mean people who just had summer jobs. 1L and 2L summer jobs are completely, utterly irrelevant to long-term hiring for the federal government, so if you are basing your chances at a federal job off of that, then you need to reassess. Otherwise, congrats on having some of the most impressive group of colleagues and friends I've ever heard of. They are certainly bucking every trend in the book.

[Incubateus]

Those friends were spread out over several years, some 1Ls with SAs and some 3Ls graduating within the next month or so.

[cinephile]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. The legal salaries being bimodal. Does that include working for a company say in their legal department? I do know a good handful of people making 80k or so in those positions. Again, from the stats I've seen that seems to be a supported conclusion.

You've already made your choice, but whatevs. Why would any reasonable company want a recent graduate with zero skills? Also, who wouldn't want this position with decent pay and decent hours? These positions are competitive and mostly closed off to recent grads.

Just seriously reach out to some students at both schools. I'm sure they have their own threads here on this site. I'm sure you know students at GMU with SAs, but what were their grades? And what were the outcomes for the majority of their classmates? How many 3Ls are graduating jobless?

If this is your dream school, then go - but after you retake and get a significant scholarship to offset the cost.

[BearsGrl]

Hahaha I love how all of the responses are from non-OSU and non-GMU posters.

So much RC fail.

OP- Listen to folks like Lifestooquick. I "followed" (not meant to sound scary at all) her in a previous cycle and she's been nothing but accommodating and will make an excellent counselor.

[rad lulz]

.

[rad lulz]

.

[BearsGrl]

Nowadays, bigfed hiring is basically nonexistent due to hiring freezes. You can intern, even for money, but you won't get the jerb.

When you can party like the GSA, who cares?

[BearsGrl]

Hahaha I love how all of the responses are from non-OSU and non-GMU posters.

You don't need to go to GMU to know that sticker at GMU is a terrible idea.

True, but OP wanted actual students/alumni from the schools. Hence, most of the dilemma in this thread.

I swear there are posters that have an app. that alerts them to every message ever made on TLS. Shouldn't you either be studying or networking?

[rad lulz]

.

[romothesavior]

Hahaha I love how all of the responses are from non-OSU and non-GMU posters.

You don't need to go to GMU to know that sticker at GMU is a terrible idea.

True, but OP wanted actual students/alumni from the schools. Hence, most of the dilemma in this thread.

I swear there are posters that have an app. that alerts them to every message ever made on TLS. Shouldn't you either be studying or networking?

You really need a new schtick. This is about the 15th time you've cracked this one. Weak.