Thread for people wanting to do international human rights Forum

[nightman09]

Also interested in this field as a 0L. I'm currently based in DC and have been working here in the national/global security policy world for about 4 1/2 years, so have a pretty good network. I'm IN at American, which has a really good international human rights focus, and am waiting to hear from G-town. I'm IN at a couple more schools outside of DC, but none that offer a compelling reason to leave the city where this kind of stuff happens, at least domestically. Any other AU 0Ls out there? Thanks for starting the thread!

+1

[observationalist]

Great advice worldtraveler. Just to add - since I'm a 2010 grad pursuing international public interest work - it is really important that you ask about both LRAP assistance and post-graduate funding. I was able to receive a 7-month stipend from my school (Vanderbilt), which was more than enough to get me set up in Chile with a job, and since it was part-time I've also been able to continue my advocacy work in the U.S. My SO received a similar stipend from her school that landed her a permanent consulting gig doing comparative international law. For both of us the programs were instrumental.

Also, I'm seconding the language recommendations even though I didn't gain fluency until I got here. You should at least aim to achieve some level of legal fluency in another language. Most of my work consists of researching Chilean enviro policy and helping groups develop strategies, taking where I can from developments in the U.S. and my own background.

And per my usual plug, those of you choosing between multiple law schools need to contact career services and request to see full employer lists for the Class of 2010. They just submitted the NALP surveys, which cover a lot of basic information that is incredibly helpful if you can access it. Things like employer names, job positions, credentials (JD/bar passage required/preferred), and location are all really helpful in figuring out whether a school is offering the types of opportunities you feel are worth the expense of earning a J.D. Absent this basic consumer information, you're forced to make an important decision without a clear picture of what each school can do for you. That goes for PI jobs as well as those aiming for biglaw. G'luck.

[wolverine6]

tag!

[MochaLatte05]

The timing of this post was so apt.

About me, I'm attending law school in the fall, for the time being at American University.

I was waitlisted at GWU (and it's kind of my first choice), but in comparing their international programs and opportunities, I'm starting to wonder if AU is actually a better choice. GW has considerably less study-abroad programs and international clinics, but has the T25 name and prestige that comes along with being in the T25.

I'm pretty committed to international law. I spent a year as an expat in France, speak french semi-fluently, and just returned from a volunteer trip in Rwanda. I've got 6 solid years of consulting work experience (with some big 5 firms), so it's not like I'll be entering the job market in the same situation as some younger graduates.

So given my situation, I'm wondering which school is most appropriate, but also offers the best opportunities while in law school and long term career prospects.

[ash8309]

The timing of this post was so apt.

About me, I'm attending law school in the fall, for the time being at American University.

I was waitlisted at GWU (and it's kind of my first choice), but in comparing their international programs and opportunities, I'm starting to wonder if AU is actually a better choice. GW has considerably less study-abroad programs and international clinics, but has the T25 name and prestige that comes along with being in the T25.

I'm pretty committed to international law. I spent a year as an expat in France, speak french semi-fluently, and just returned from a volunteer trip in Rwanda. I've got 6 solid years of consulting work experience (with some big 5 firms), so it's not like I'll be entering the job market in the same situation as some younger graduates.

So given my situation, I'm wondering which school is most appropriate, but also offers the best opportunities while in law school and long term career prospects.

I was dinged at GW but accepted into American. I've been talking to a lot of people about DC schools for international human rights law (currently live/work in DC). A lot of people in the field say hands down AU is the best. Did you apply for PIPS?

[worldtraveler]

The timing of this post was so apt.

About me, I'm attending law school in the fall, for the time being at American University.

I was waitlisted at GWU (and it's kind of my first choice), but in comparing their international programs and opportunities, I'm starting to wonder if AU is actually a better choice. GW has considerably less study-abroad programs and international clinics, but has the T25 name and prestige that comes along with being in the T25.

I'm pretty committed to international law. I spent a year as an expat in France, speak french semi-fluently, and just returned from a volunteer trip in Rwanda. I've got 6 solid years of consulting work experience (with some big 5 firms), so it's not like I'll be entering the job market in the same situation as some younger graduates.

So given my situation, I'm wondering which school is most appropriate, but also offers the best opportunities while in law school and long term career prospects.

You don't have to go to a law school with a study abroad program. You can go to a school without one and do an externship or a study abroad program with another school. Every school is different when it comes to these requirements, so if it is something that interests you, look into that.

I also don't think semester long study abroad is the greatest idea in law school, but that's for a different conversation.

In terms of clinics, I'm not familiar with the specific clinics at AU. However, more is not always better. You have limited time in law school. You don't have time to do every clinic available, so look more at specific ones that interest you. A lot of times people get carried away with choosing the school with tons of options only to realize that some of those options aren't as great as they seem or that you don't have time to do all of them.

[feefee]

Wow, I never thought there would be a thread that interested me enough to stop lurking. Tag for me too!

I've been working in int'l development for several years now (1/2 DC-based, 1/2 field-based) and will be going to Mich in the fall; ideally coming out in 2014 with enough know-how to work on the technical - rather than the admin/mgmt - side of development, which is what I've been doing 'til now...

[whitman]

I have a question about this. I am currently considering GULC, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, Texas, Vanderbilt (with $50k), and UW (expecting small scholarship); waiting on Michigan, NYU, USC, Duke, and Chicago.

First, I have no international work experience. I spent a semester studying Spanish in Spain, but I know that is not helpful. I have a year of domestic AmeriCorps work and some good basis for demonstrating PI focus. Should I defer a year and get some international work experience? I am very interested in Latin America in particular. I thought about the Peace Corps, but it is a long committment. I am not sure how else to get such good, hands-on, prestigious experience abroad, though. If you do think this would behoove me, any suggestions?

Second, between those schools, is Penn significantly better than GULC? Georgetown seems to have better name recognition, which might help abroad, but Penn seems to be a strong school overall. And should those definitely be my top two choices regardless of money? Or should I consider Texas, Vandy, UW with scholly?

Thanks!

[worldtraveler]

I have a question about this. I am currently considering GULC, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, Texas, Vanderbilt (with $50k), and UW (expecting small scholarship); waiting on Michigan, NYU, USC, Duke, and Chicago.

First, I have no international work experience. I spent a semester studying Spanish in Spain, but I know that is not helpful. I have a year of domestic AmeriCorps work and some good basis for demonstrating PI focus. Should I defer a year and get some international work experience? I am very interested in Latin America in particular. I thought about the Peace Corps, but it is a long committment. I am not sure how else to get such good, hands-on, prestigious experience abroad, though. If you do think this would behoove me, any suggestions?

Second, between those schools, is Penn significantly better than GULC? Georgetown seems to have better name recognition, which might help abroad, but Penn seems to be a strong school overall. And should those definitely be my top two choices regardless of money? Or should I consider Texas, Vandy, UW with scholly?

Thanks!

If I were you, I would defer. Once you're in law school, you're on a train that doesn't stop. If you have an inclination to go abroad for a year, now is the time. It's one year of your life, and law school can wait. It's not going anywhere.

Having significant experience abroad can really aid your resume. It also just enhances your perspective. Even if your time abroad never helps you get a job or an internship (unlikely, but let's consider it), your education will be enhanced just by seeing the world from a different point of view. If you end up in a job with a Latin America focus, the more experience you have on the ground, the better off you will be.

I also say to defer because you've picked a fairly competitive region of the world to focus on. In my opinion, Spanish is a necessity. So is on the ground experience. It's incredibly difficult to find lawyers with expertise random, obscure places like the Central African Republic. Latin America is far more common. From what I've seen, the vast majority of internships and jobs in the region require fluent or at least proficent Spanish. Most other regions are not that picky because there just isn't that much competition. Being an applicant who says "I'm fluent in Spanish and I lived for a year doing xxxx in xxx country" is a far better candidate than what you would say now.

Don't worry about the "prestige" of what you'll do. Just find something if this is what you really want. Teach English. If you can swing it financially, offer to volunteer somewhere for a few months. It matters less what you do and more that you were there. Most of my experience abroad has nothing to do with law, yet employers still really, really care about it.

For your second question, that school list is huge. Think about where you want to live, the kind of lifestyle you want, and whether you're doing LRAP or if you need a scholarship. I don't think I can answer whether Penn is that much better than Gtown. For certain purposes, probably yes. Others, not so much.

Also, I'm clearly biased, but why is Berkeley not on that list? If you want Latin America, then you should try and come here. A lot of our international stuff is Latin America focused. In my opinion a bit too focused.

[whitman]

I have a question about this. I am currently considering GULC, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, Texas, Vanderbilt (with $50k), and UW (expecting small scholarship); waiting on Michigan, NYU, USC, Duke, and Chicago.

First, I have no international work experience. I spent a semester studying Spanish in Spain, but I know that is not helpful. I have a year of domestic AmeriCorps work and some good basis for demonstrating PI focus. Should I defer a year and get some international work experience? I am very interested in Latin America in particular. I thought about the Peace Corps, but it is a long committment. I am not sure how else to get such good, hands-on, prestigious experience abroad, though. If you do think this would behoove me, any suggestions?

Second, between those schools, is Penn significantly better than GULC? Georgetown seems to have better name recognition, which might help abroad, but Penn seems to be a strong school overall. And should those definitely be my top two choices regardless of money? Or should I consider Texas, Vandy, UW with scholly?

Thanks!

If I were you, I would defer. Once you're in law school, you're on a train that doesn't stop. If you have an inclination to go abroad for a year, now is the time. It's one year of your life, and law school can wait. It's not going anywhere.

Having significant experience abroad can really aid your resume. It also just enhances your perspective. Even if your time abroad never helps you get a job or an internship (unlikely, but let's consider it), your education will be enhanced just by seeing the world from a different point of view. If you end up in a job with a Latin America focus, the more experience you have on the ground, the better off you will be.

I also say to defer because you've picked a fairly competitive region of the world to focus on. In my opinion, Spanish is a necessity. So is on the ground experience. It's incredibly difficult to find lawyers with expertise random, obscure places like the Central African Republic. Latin America is far more common. From what I've seen, the vast majority of internships and jobs in the region require fluent or at least proficent Spanish. Most other regions are not that picky because there just isn't that much competition. Being an applicant who says "I'm fluent in Spanish and I lived for a year doing xxxx in xxx country" is a far better candidate than what you would say now.

Don't worry about the "prestige" of what you'll do. Just find something if this is what you really want. Teach English. If you can swing it financially, offer to volunteer somewhere for a few months. It matters less what you do and more that you were there. Most of my experience abroad has nothing to do with law, yet employers still really, really care about it.

For your second question, that school list is huge. Think about where you want to live, the kind of lifestyle you want, and whether you're doing LRAP or if you need a scholarship. I don't think I can answer whether Penn is that much better than Gtown. For certain purposes, probably yes. Others, not so much.

Also, I'm clearly biased, but why is Berkeley not on that list? If you want Latin America, then you should try and come here. A lot of our international stuff is Latin America focused. In my opinion a bit too focused.

Hey thanks so much for taking time out of your day to respond to my questions. That seems like good advice about going abroad, and I think that is what I'm going to do. Do you think a full year is necessary? I was hoping, if I deferred, to work a few months and save up some more money to finance the working/volunteering abroad, but that would only leave me 4-9 months.

Also, unfortunately, Berkeley was my number 1 choice, but they gave me the big ding. That was devastating. Thanks for reminding me. Just kidding.

[MochaLatte05]

The timing of this post was so apt.

About me, I'm attending law school in the fall, for the time being at American University.

I was waitlisted at GWU (and it's kind of my first choice), but in comparing their international programs and opportunities, I'm starting to wonder if AU is actually a better choice. GW has considerably less study-abroad programs and international clinics, but has the T25 name and prestige that comes along with being in the T25.

I'm pretty committed to international law. I spent a year as an expat in France, speak french semi-fluently, and just returned from a volunteer trip in Rwanda. I've got 6 solid years of consulting work experience (with some big 5 firms), so it's not like I'll be entering the job market in the same situation as some younger graduates.

So given my situation, I'm wondering which school is most appropriate, but also offers the best opportunities while in law school and long term career prospects.

You don't have to go to a law school with a study abroad program. You can go to a school without one and do an externship or a study abroad program with another school. Every school is different when it comes to these requirements, so if it is something that interests you, look into that.

I also don't think semester long study abroad is the greatest idea in law school, but that's for a different conversation.

In terms of clinics, I'm not familiar with the specific clinics at AU. However, more is not always better. You have limited time in law school. You don't have time to do every clinic available, so look more at specific ones that interest you. A lot of times people get carried away with choosing the school with tons of options only to realize that some of those options aren't as great as they seem or that you don't have time to do all of them.

I think the focus was misleading here. Primarily I'm concerned with the opportunities available and the likelihood of long term job prospects at both schools, especially considering my background. Thanks for responding!

[azure55]

Have you heard anything about the Northwestern JD/LLM in International Human Rights? Positive/Negative/Apathetic?

I’m curious about this, too. I’ve heard that the IHR LLM helps in the international job market because many foreign countries structure their legal education differently (more like our med school system). As a result, your JD may not look as impressive as a foreign legal degree, which might be important if you're looking to work somewhere that hires from multiple countries. Any truth to that? I would think that the extra year also gives you more time for internships abroad, journals, international moot court, etc.

(Yeah, that’s right skeptics. International law doesn’t exist, which is why they dedicate one of the world’s most prestigious moot court competitions to international law.)

Plus, you have the benefit of making connections with other people interested in the field, as with the GULC Global Law Scholars program (any assessment of the Global Law Scholars program would be great, too!).

And what’s the value of “certificates” in areas such as human rights or refugee and humanitarian emergencies? Any inside knowledge would be much appreciated.

[worldtraveler]

Have you heard anything about the Northwestern JD/LLM in International Human Rights? Positive/Negative/Apathetic?

I’m curious about this, too. I’ve heard that the IHR LLM helps in the international job market because many foreign countries structure their legal education differently (more like our med school system). As a result, your JD may not look as impressive as a foreign legal degree, which might be important if you're looking to work somewhere that hires from multiple countries. Any truth to that? I would think that the extra year also gives you more time for internships abroad, journals, international moot court, etc.

(Yeah, that’s right skeptics. International law doesn’t exist, which is why they dedicate one of the world’s most prestigious moot court competitions to international law.)

Plus, you have the benefit of making connections with other people interested in the field, as with the GULC Global Law Scholars program (any assessment of the Global Law Scholars program would be great, too!).

And what’s the value of “certificates” in areas such as human rights or refugee and humanitarian emergencies? Any inside knowledge would be much appreciated.

I know next to nothing about NU's program. All I know is that in general, NU does not send as many grads into human rights as do peer schools. That isn't necessarily reflection of the quality, though.

I think the advantage to an LLM that you're referring to wouldn't really exist for a domestic LLM. Getting an LLM from Oxford or somewhere else would be helpful because, as you said, you'd learn about a different legal system. Here the LLM would still be from the American perspective with American professors. There may still be other positives to the degree, but I don't know enough about it to say.

As for certificates, it's an easy way to show that you focused on those kinds of classes. Other than that, not much of an advantage. Sometime to put on your resume, but the availability of a certificate shouldn't factor into your decision. Schools use it as an easy way to market their programs.

I don't know much about the GULC program so maybe someone else can address that.

[AstronautMikeDexter]

I have a couple of questions related to this thread: I'm a 0L interested in international human rights law, and I'm confused about all the skepticism. Is the market for it really so negligible that people claim it doesn't exist? Is there merely extensive anecdotal evidence of otherwise-worthy law grads in the field remaining unemployed forever and ever?

Worldtraveler, I'm considering coming to Berkeley this fall, and I was wondering if you could speak to its specific merits. I'm interested in working in the Middle East, specifically. I'm fluent in French and have some study abroad experience and a year of Arabic under my belt (I'm hoping to attend a law school that might let me continue taking language classes for credit). Currently, all of my research and education efforts are in the tiny niche of family law in the Middle East (esp. as it pertains to LGBT folk and women).

My other two options are a JD/LLM in Int'l Comparative Law at Duke (with $$) and Columbia (at sticker). Any advice? I'm attending all three ASWs but am totally baffled, since they all obviously have their strengths.

[japes]

What would be the added value of a JD/Master's in Public Affairs? Would it justify another year of school and the accompanying tuition?

Also, in terms of prestige etc - would the difference between a low T14 like Cornell and a T20 like Texas be significant in hiring in the field?

[worldtraveler]

I have a couple of questions related to this thread: I'm a 0L interested in international human rights law, and I'm confused about all the skepticism. Is the market for it really so negligible that people claim it doesn't exist? Is there merely extensive anecdotal evidence of otherwise-worthy law grads in the field remaining unemployed forever and ever?

Worldtraveler, I'm considering coming to Berkeley this fall, and I was wondering if you could speak to its specific merits. I'm interested in working in the Middle East, specifically. I'm fluent in French and have some study abroad experience and a year of Arabic under my belt (I'm hoping to attend a law school that might let me continue taking language classes for credit). Currently, all of my research and education efforts are in the tiny niche of family law in the Middle East (esp. as it pertains to LGBT folk and women).

My other two options are a JD/LLM in Int'l Comparative Law at Duke (with $$) and Columbia (at sticker). Any advice? I'm attending all three ASWs but am totally baffled, since they all obviously have their strengths.

You can take Arabic for credit at Berkeley during your 2L and 3L years. However, it counts for half the credits. So a year of 10 credits of Arabic (5 each semester) counts for 5 total in the law school. You're also still restricted to 17 total credits, so fitting all that in is really, really difficult. I imagine requirements are similar at other schools.

As to my knowledge, we don't have any specific internship programs already set up in the Middle East. However you can seek them out on your own. We do have a chapter of the Iraqi Refugee Assistance Project, which is a student run clinic. There is also a Middle Eastern journal and Islamic law and an Islamic finance course. There are students who have had internships in the region. I've had a couple offers for there but I haven't taken them, so it is definitely possible to do.

For Middle Eastern stuff, I honestly think Michigan, NYU, or maybe Penn would be best. They have joint degrees in Middle Eastern/Islamic studies so that might be something you could consider. Berkeley also has one but it's a bit more complicated. If that interests you, I can explain it.

What exactly do you want to do in the Middle East? I can give you a better answer if you're more specific. Your school choice is also really going to depend on whether you want LRAP or not.

[Eugenie Danglars]

Thought I 'd chime in even though I want to do more on the domestic end of things. I hope to do public immigration law, starting with direct client service on asylum and deportation cases and maybe working my way into policy.

I've mainly narrowed my choices down to BU and Northwestern. (I got into GULC, but I'd rather not live in DC). I lived in Boston for 4 years before I joined Peace Corps, so that 's where all my connections and networks are. However, their clinics and their LRAP (especially the LRAP) seem a little weak compared to NU.

Thoughts?

[mettasutta]

Thank you for making this thread, worldtraveler.

Piggybacking on the last posters' post, would a non-T14 but very strong regional school like BC/BU/GW generally preclude one from IHR work? Like Eugenie Danglars, I'm more interested in the domestic side of it--particularly asylum law. It would be my dream to work for an org like Tahirih Justice in DC (http://www.tahirih.org/) which was founded by a graduate of my tiny LAC UG--not sure if this matters connections-wise, lol.

Also, I read in another thread of yours a while back that when looking for int'l PI jobs, you've never been asked for your transcript, which I found odd. Is this typical?

[Lotus24]

I am interested in several different fields mentioned by worldtraveler, namely policy or advocacy with NGOs...probably focusing on issues in Latin America. I'm fluent in Spanish(I'm half Latino) and currently work in D.C. in domestic microenterprise that focuses on Latino entrepreneurs. My undergrad was Latin American Studies and I've pretty much been focused in that field since graduating 5 years ago.

I'm looking at AU vs. UConn in-state tuition. I already posted another thread about my decision, and am just wondering if folks think all these international opportunities and externships at AU really build your resume and help you in terms of career development. I understand it's not T14 and is up against the much higher ranked GULC but since these are my options, I'm concerned with the issue at hand. My hesitation after attending AU's ASD is that so many people are interested in international and human rights law there that the competition for the (albeit many) opportunities in the field there will be over the top. Also, it looks like their human rights summer session and their externships are potentially available to visiting students from other schools. Anyone know about any of this?

[worldtraveler]

Thought I 'd chime in even though I want to do more on the domestic end of things. I hope to do public immigration law, starting with direct client service on asylum and deportation cases and maybe working my way into policy.

I've mainly narrowed my choices down to BU and Northwestern. (I got into GULC, but I'd rather not live in DC). I lived in Boston for 4 years before I joined Peace Corps, so that 's where all my connections and networks are. However, their clinics and their LRAP (especially the LRAP) seem a little weak compared to NU.

Thoughts?

With immigration, there are really a lot of opportunities but the pay is pretty bad. Keeping your debt low or a good LRAP are important. Really look at clinic opportunities. You will want to do an immigration clinic while in school, and have externship opportunities. If I were you, I would pick NU for the LRAP, although I don't know the details of their LRAP.
Also keep in mind that some immigration work is difficult to get. You will likely need a fellowship to start straight out in that field, and those go to top students at the top schools. I don't know much about the immigration opportunities in Chicago or Boston, maybe somebody else does. Finding connections while you're in school is crucial, so you should check that out.

[20160810]

I hate both internationalism (seriously, I've never been outside the country and the thought of even applying for a passport makes me want to puke) and human rights (I only buy clothes made in sweatshops), but I appreciate that this thread will be relevant to many people who are not me and thus thank WT for starting it.

[worldtraveler]

Thank you for making this thread, worldtraveler.

Piggybacking on the last posters' post, would a non-T14 but very strong regional school like BC/BU/GW generally preclude one from IHR work? Like Eugenie Danglars, I'm more interested in the domestic side of it--particularly asylum law. It would be my dream to work for an org like Tahirih Justice in DC (http://www.tahirih.org/) which was founded by a graduate of my tiny LAC UG--not sure if this matters connections-wise, lol.

Also, I read in another thread of yours a while back that when looking for int'l PI jobs, you've never been asked for your transcript, which I found odd. Is this typical?

Working at a place like Tahirih from a regional school is probably quite difficult. They will not hire you straight out and you would either need to get experience elsewhere or get a fellowship to work with them. That would be difficult to do from a regional school, though not impossible.

A lot of public interest summer jobs will not ask for transcripts. They might ask for a lower ranked school, though. They are going to look at your school, your publications, your clinic and volunteer work, maybe contact references, and other things showing your dedication and experience to that kind of work. Grades WILL matter at elite places: Amnesty, HRW, ACLU, and the government will ask. Small places probably will not.
At least among other people I know doing PI, there is a general opinion that grades do not matter for summer jobs. I actually had to print off a transcript for a scholarship and realized I didn't know how to do it, because I never need to. When I graduate, I imagine grades will matter for some fellowships and things, but for the most part, my resume should speak for itself. However, if I were at a lower ranked school, I imagine they would matter more.

[mettasutta]

However, if I were at a lower ranked school, I imagine they would matter more.

By "lower-ranked" do you mean non-T14? Or T2/T3/T4?

[worldtraveler]

I am interested in several different fields mentioned by worldtraveler, namely policy or advocacy with NGOs...probably focusing on issues in Latin America. I'm fluent in Spanish(I'm half Latino) and currently work in D.C. in domestic microenterprise that focuses on Latino entrepreneurs. My undergrad was Latin American Studies and I've pretty much been focused in that field since graduating 5 years ago.

I'm looking at AU vs. UConn in-state tuition. I already posted another thread about my decision, and am just wondering if folks think all these international opportunities and externships at AU really build your resume and help you in terms of career development. I understand it's not T14 and is up against the much higher ranked GULC but since these are my options, I'm concerned with the issue at hand. My hesitation after attending AU's ASD is that so many people are interested in international and human rights law there that the competition for the (albeit many) opportunities in the field there will be over the top. Also, it looks like their human rights summer session and their externships are potentially available to visiting students from other schools. Anyone know about any of this?

What is the price difference between these two? Does AU have a good LRAP?

Just based on your description, I'm tempted to say go to UConn. You don't need a school to set up internship and externships for you. I don't know who started this myth, but it needs to stop. There are a few programs that you can only get into if your school has a program for it. The vast majority of internships are ones you get through your own applications. I got my 1L internship from literally googling "international human rights law intern." Why more people do not do this, I don't know.

As to my knowledge, AU gets a lot of students interested in int'l positions yet in my opinion, they do not have a great track record in placing graduates in positions with NGOs and the like. The one non-T14 I've seen place a considerable amount of people in these kinds of positions is Fordham.

The main advantage of AU is its location in DC, meaning you can do externships during the year.

[worldtraveler]

However, if I were at a lower ranked school, I imagine they would matter more.

By "lower-ranked" do you mean non-T14? Or T2/T3/T4?

I mean non T14. International human rights people are just as prestige obsessed with law firms.