T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings Forum

[keg411]

I think your counterarguments are far stronger than your regular arguments.

Okay, 0Ls, another nugget of TLS wisdom for you: Schools with graded legal writing classes are significantly tougher than schools without it. The grading structure for legal writing should be a controlling factor in deciding between schools. Good luck!

(Please note: One dissenting poster did note that he went to a T14 with a nongraded legal writing course, and it was a living hell. Most people were maxing out their study time.)

You are a 0L, which is your first indication that you have no clue about first semester legal writing classes. LAWR does not make your life hell unless you let it or overstress about it. There is more than enough time to set aside for it if you are organized. Finals memos in LAWR do NOT at all affect your ability to study for exams. If you set yourself up to hate legal writing, you will hate it -- which is a poor attitude to have since lawyers have to write a lot.

[Bronte]

Okay, 0Ls, another nugget of TLS wisdom for you: Schools with graded legal writing classes are significantly tougher than schools without it. The grading structure for legal writing should be a controlling factor in deciding between schools. Good luck!

(Please note: One dissenting poster did note that he went to a T14 with a nongraded legal writing course, and it was a living hell. Most people were maxing out their study time.)

You are a 0L, which is your first indication that you have no clue about first semester legal writing classes. LAWR does not make your life hell unless you let it or overstress about it. There is more than enough time to set aside for it if you are organized. Finals memos in LAWR do NOT at all affect your ability to study for exams. If you set yourself up to hate legal writing, you will hate it -- which is a poor attitude to have since lawyers have to write a lot.

(1) I'm not an 0L. (2) You're not arguing against my position. My position is not that legal writing makes your life hell. My position is that whether legal writing is graded should not be a controlling factor in deciding between schools.

Edit: Maybe your confusion arises out of the fact that the post you quoted is entirely sarcastic and only makes sense within the context of a discussion I was having with another poster.

[cornellbeez]

I attend a T-14 with ungraded legal writing. FTW. I don't recall my classmates "maxing out" study time either, we just didn't have to give a shit about going over our essays 50+ times. I'm also glad I attend a school with only 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

[Bronte]

I attend a T-14 with ungraded legal writing. FTW. I don't recall my classmates "maxing out" study time either, we just didn't have to give a shit about going over our essays 50+ times. I'm also glad I attend a school with only 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

If you go to Cornell, nobody believes you about maxing out. (Jk, but are we really arguing all of a sudden that people don't study their asses off in law school?) Seriously though, would you recommend making this issue a significant factor in deciding between schools? I've stipulated that I'd rather have ungraded (and I'm glad I do). I just don't think it should be the new deciding factor in choosing a school.

[cornellbeez]

I attend a T-14 with ungraded legal writing. FTW. I don't recall my classmates "maxing out" study time either, we just didn't have to give a shit about going over our essays 50+ times. I'm also glad I attend a school with only 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

If you go to Cornell, nobody believes you about maxing out. (Jk, but are we really arguing all of a sudden that people don't study their asses of in law school?) Seriously though, would you recommend making this issue a significant factor in deciding between schools? I've stipulated that I'd rather have ungraded (and I'm glad I do). I just don't think it should be the new deciding factor in choosing a school.

I went to Cornell undergrad. I go to MVP, am a 2L, and am really glad that I didn't have to waste my time doing graded LRW. (I say waste, because whatever you didn't learn in LRW, you can learn with a federal judge during 1L summer, plus far more.)

[Bronte]

I attend a T-14 with ungraded legal writing. FTW. I don't recall my classmates "maxing out" study time either, we just didn't have to give a shit about going over our essays 50+ times. I'm also glad I attend a school with only 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

If you go to Cornell, nobody believes you about maxing out. (Jk, but are we really arguing all of a sudden that people don't study their asses of in law school?) Seriously though, would you recommend making this issue a significant factor in deciding between schools? I've stipulated that I'd rather have ungraded (and I'm glad I do). I just don't think it should be the new deciding factor in choosing a school.

I went to Cornell undergrad. I go to MVP.

Cool, that part was a joke anyway. What about my real question?

[cornellbeez]

I attend a T-14 with ungraded legal writing. FTW. I don't recall my classmates "maxing out" study time either, we just didn't have to give a shit about going over our essays 50+ times. I'm also glad I attend a school with only 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

If you go to Cornell, nobody believes you about maxing out. (Jk, but are we really arguing all of a sudden that people don't study their asses of in law school?) Seriously though, would you recommend making this issue a significant factor in deciding between schools? I've stipulated that I'd rather have ungraded (and I'm glad I do). I just don't think it should be the new deciding factor in choosing a school.

I went to Cornell undergrad. I go to MVP.

Cool, that part was a joke anyway. What about my real question?

Well, if the schools have similar prospects, I think scholarship money is more important. If the schools have similar prospects and similar costs, I'd go with ungraded. If similar prospects and costs, I'd also attend the school with 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

[Bronte]

If the schools had similar prospects and similar costs, I'd go with ungraded. I'd also attend the school with 3 doctrinal courses, rather than 4, in a semester.

Yeah I'll agree that all else equal you go with ungraded. I just think it's pretty rare that you won't have something more important controlling the decision (costs, preference for the location, etc.).

[Hannibal]

I'd like to see this expanded for all of T1.

[Knock]

I'd like to see this expanded for all of T1.

Sure thing. I'll work on getting that done.

[BeachandRun23]

I'd like to see this expanded for all of T1.

Sure thing. I'll work on getting that done.

Yeah that would be sweet....atleast the top 30 or so. Thanks!

[BioEBear2010]

I believe that SLS has 180 students/class, making 6 30-person sized sections and 10 18-person federal litigation sections.

[UnitarySpace]

columbia's LPW is actually HP/P/LP/F

[vamedic03]

Top 14 by first year section size:
1. Yale 58
2. Stanford 60
3. Northwestern 65
4. Duke 68
5. Virginia 72
6. Harvard 80
7. Penn 85
8. NYU 89
9. UCal-Berkeley 90
10. Michigan 91
11. Chicago 93
12. Columbia 95
13. Cornell 100
14. Georgetown 117

Not quite sure where you're getting this section size data. UVA's sections are 30 students. Every section takes LRW together and has one other class that's just the section. The other 3 substantive classes are 2-3 sections combined. In the spring semester, LRW remains single section and the 2 required classes are 2 sections combined. There are also two electives in the spring semester.

[CyLaw]

Top 14 by first year section size:
1. Yale 58
2. Stanford 60
3. Northwestern 65
4. Duke 68
5. Virginia 72
6. Harvard 80
7. Penn 85
8. NYU 89
9. UCal-Berkeley 90
10. Michigan 91
11. Chicago 93
12. Columbia 95
13. Cornell 100
14. Georgetown 117

Not quite sure where you're getting this section size data. UVA's sections are 30 students. Every section takes LRW together and has one other class that's just the section. The other 3 substantive classes are 2-3 sections combined. In the spring semester, LRW remains single section and the 2 required classes are 2 sections combined. There are also two electives in the spring semester.

Similar structure for Cornell. ~35 people per section. LRW is only your section. One substantive class with only your section. 2 classes with another section. Remaining classes with 3 sections total.

[Knock]

Okay, i'll take the section data out until I have compiled an accurate list.

[UnitarySpace]

scratch what i said earlier about cls. we have hp/p/lp/f but its not factored into gpa.

[Bosque]

Okay, i'll take the section data out until I have compiled an accurate list.

I think that list is accurate, but only if you are talking about average class size for the combined section 1L classes, not the actual sections themselves. Which is what really matters, since you are going to be taking most of your classes with another section.

[cornellbeez]

Okay, i'll take the section data out until I have compiled an accurate list.

I think that list is accurate, but only if you are talking about average class size for the combined section 1L classes, not the actual sections themselves. Which is what really matters, since you are going to be taking most of your classes with another section.

List is dubious, considering the "averages" include a 93/91. Wtf?

At Mich, your section = 22 people. On average in a 1L semester, you take 2 1L doctrinal courses with ~90 people, then 1 1L course with ~45, and LRW is about ~22.

There are technically "4 sections" within a 90 person class. In other words, your actual section is your LRW section of 22.

[094320]

..

[09042014]

From smallest to biggest class sizes:
1. Stanford University 170
2. University of Chicago 191
3. Cornell University 205
4. Yale University 214
5. Duke University 228
6. University of Pennsylvania 255
7. Northwestern University 271
8. University of California – Berkeley 292
9. University of Virginia 368
10. University of Michigan 371
11. Columbia University 397
12. New York University 450
13. Georgetown University 463
14. Harvard University 559

Harvard is obviousy TTT.

The huge class size does dilute it's placement power, especially at the bottom of the class.

[BeachandRun23]

From smallest to biggest class sizes:
1. Stanford University 170
2. University of Chicago 191
3. Cornell University 205
4. Yale University 214
5. Duke University 228
6. University of Pennsylvania 255
7. Northwestern University 271
8. University of California – Berkeley 292
9. University of Virginia 368
10. University of Michigan 371
11. Columbia University 397
12. New York University 450
13. Georgetown University 463
14. Harvard University 559

Harvard is obviousy TTT.

The huge class size does dilute it's placement power, especially at the bottom of the class.

Yes, but i dont think harvard law grads have trouble finding jobs. It may not be the job they wanted, and it may not be in the most prestigous firm, but im sure they can still find a job paying something reasonable.

But you're right, due to sheer size, HLS grads will never be recruited like YLS. Yale has like 1/3 the class size.

[le_taon]

I just want to say that I think the criticisms being lobbied at Chicago's LRW in this thread are beyond inane.

First of all, Chicago's LRW (the Bigelow program) is NOT graded on the same curve as other classes. The default, "I actually put in a modicum of effort" grade (178) is ABOVE the median for other classes (177). And unlike those other classes, as I understand it, there's no requirement that for every upward deviation into the A range there be a downward deviation into the C range.

Thus LRW is most definitely a way to raise one's GPA, not lower it.

Nor, frankly, is LRW a particularly difficult burden on most students. One writing assignment per quarter -- three total over the course of an entire year (plus perhaps some really minor assignments in between, at the discretion of each section's instructor) -- is simply not that bad as these things go.

My point is, not choosing Chicago because of the LRW would be an exceptionally questionable idea.

Also FYI: Chicago c/o 2013 is about 205 b/c we leaped above NYU and so the yield went up. Oh the hazards of UNSWR.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I just want to say that I think the criticisms being lobbied at Chicago's LRW in this thread are beyond inane.

First of all, Chicago's LRW (the Bigelow program) is NOT graded on the same curve as other classes. The default, "I actually put in a modicum of effort" grade (178) is ABOVE the median for other classes (177). And unlike those other classes, as I understand it, there's no requirement that for every upward deviation into the A range there be a downward deviation into the C range.

Thus LRW is most definitely a way to raise one's GPA, not lower it.

Nor, frankly, is LRW a particularly difficult burden on most students. One writing assignment per quarter -- three total over the course of an entire year (plus perhaps some really minor assignments in between, at the discretion of each section's instructor) -- is simply not that bad as these things go.

My point is, not choosing Chicago because of the LRW would be an exceptionally questionable idea.

Also FYI: Chicago c/o 2013 is about 205 b/c we leaped above NYU and so the yield went up. Oh the hazards of UNSWR.

+1 to this whole post. Choosing a different school over Chicago is fine, but LRW should have no impact on your decision.

[BruceWayne]

I just want to say that I think the criticisms being lobbied at Chicago's LRW in this thread are beyond inane.

First of all, Chicago's LRW (the Bigelow program) is NOT graded on the same curve as other classes. The default, "I actually put in a modicum of effort" grade (178) is ABOVE the median for other classes (177). And unlike those other classes, as I understand it, there's no requirement that for every upward deviation into the A range there be a downward deviation into the C range.

Thus LRW is most definitely a way to raise one's GPA, not lower it.

Nor, frankly, is LRW a particularly difficult burden on most students. One writing assignment per quarter -- three total over the course of an entire year (plus perhaps some really minor assignments in between, at the discretion of each section's instructor) -- is simply not that bad as these things go.

My point is, not choosing Chicago because of the LRW would be an exceptionally questionable idea.

Also FYI: Chicago c/o 2013 is about 205 b/c we leaped above NYU and so the yield went up. Oh the hazards of UNSWR.

+1 to this whole post. Choosing a different school over Chicago is fine, but LRW should have no impact on your decision.

Why not? It's always better to be safe than sorry. While Chicago's LRW may not be as rough as the doctrinal classes curve, you could still do poorly in it. That could preclude you from jobs. If you have the option of going to a school with a similar rep but an ungraded LRW you have one less thing to worry about. There's enough ranking and competition as it is in law school; contrary to popular law school belief you don't need to be ranked/compared at every damn thing.