T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings Forum

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm far too busy with LRW to come up with a response to that.

[le_taon]

+1 to this whole post. Choosing a different school over Chicago is fine, but LRW should have no impact on your decision.

Why not? It's always better to be safe than sorry. While Chicago's LRW may not be as rough as the doctrinal classes curve, you could still do poorly in it. That could preclude you from jobs. If you have the option of going to a school with a similar rep but an ungraded LRW you have one less thing to worry about. There's enough ranking and competition as it is in law school; contrary to popular law school belief you don't need to be ranked/compared at every damn thing.

This is absurd. The far greater likelihood is that you will do well and that it will make your GPA go up and not down. Yes, it's possible that you'll do poorly -- but you're far more likely to do poorly in a substantive class -- and if you do so, it will be more noticeable.

And while I know it's basically verboten to talk about real education as an actual goal of law school, I'd like to point out that it's far from clear to me that individuals taking non-graded LRW actually learn how to write in law school...

[Borhas]

Yale- "Unlike many other schools, you won't take an introductory legal writing course at YLS - writing is taught in the context of your required first-term classes."

[wiseowl]

+1 to this whole post. Choosing a different school over Chicago is fine, but LRW should have no impact on your decision.

Why not? It's always better to be safe than sorry. While Chicago's LRW may not be as rough as the doctrinal classes curve, you could still do poorly in it. That could preclude you from jobs. If you have the option of going to a school with a similar rep but an ungraded LRW you have one less thing to worry about. There's enough ranking and competition as it is in law school; contrary to popular law school belief you don't need to be ranked/compared at every damn thing.

This is absurd. The far greater likelihood is that you will do well and that it will make your GPA go up and not down. Yes, it's possible that you'll do poorly -- but you're far more likely to do poorly in a substantive class -- and if you do so, it will be more noticeable.

And while I know it's basically verboten to talk about real education as an actual goal of law school, I'd like to point out that it's far from clear to me that individuals taking non-graded LRW actually learn how to write in law school...

It matters less than zero how an English professor or biglaw burnout along with a set of dorky 2Ls "teaches" you how to do legal writing. Your judge or your firm will teach you how *they* want you to write when you arrive there, and if you protest with "b-b-b-b-but my LRW prof said it was like this!!!!" you get kicked in the Sparta hole.

[Saul Goodman]

Can we change this thread to T13 only?

[FiveSermon]

Can we change this thread to T13 only?

+1

[saladfiend]

I'd like to add info about UCLA.

Legal Writing is a 5-unit full-year course at UCLA. It is graded on the 1L curve (25-28% As and A-s, ~50% Bs and B+s, ~20% B-, 5-8% C+). The grade counts for your GPA. Students take it very seriously, perhaps too seriously.

The legal writing sections are ~20-25 students.

[Knock]

I'd like to add info about UCLA.

Legal Writing is a 5-unit full-year course at UCLA. It is graded on the 1L curve (25-28% As and A-s, ~50% Bs and B+s, ~20% B-, 5-8% C+). The grade counts for your GPA. Students take it very seriously, perhaps too seriously.

The legal writing sections are ~20-25 students.

Added, thanks for contributing.

I also added some additional rankings into the OP. Feel free to make a request if there is a ranking you'd like to see included.

[weee]

As much as I hated having a graded course for Legal Writing, I think if it was not graded I would be even worse at legal writing than I am now. Despite the fact that it will not be doing my GPA any favors, I have to think in the balance it is better to be somehow forced to give the class more attention, since it is the most practical skill someone looking to do litigation stuff could learn in 1L.

I think graded, uncurved would be better than graded, curved because then there would be less chance of detriment to the GPA while keeping incentive to work hard.

[sup]

Could someone also please post the following specific rankings from the USNews rankings?

GPA (25th-75th percentile)
Acceptance rate
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (out of 5)
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation

USNews is greedy and asks for $$$ to see these.

[Renne Walker]

Legal Research & Writing Graded/Ungraded
NYU- Ungraded

Class Size Rankings
12. New York University 450

Section Size Rankings (All Data from Official ABA Data)
8. NYU 89

Student-To-Faculty Ratio Rankings (All Data From Official ABA Data)
4. NYU 9.4:1

Cost of Attendance Rankings (2010 Data, COA may have increased since then)
9. NYU $70,866

Minority Enrollment (All Data From Official ABA Data)
12. NYU 23.3%

Female Enrollment (All Data From Official ABA Data)
12. NYU 44.0%

[Includes African-Americans, American-Indians, Asian-American, Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Hispanic, Excludes "Unkown"]

Percent of Class Receiving Grants (All Data From Official ABA Data)
13. NYU 34.8%

Median Grant Amount (All Data From Official ABA Data)
4. NYU $20,000

Great data: Just narrowing for an easy NYU read. Thanks.

[HeavenWood]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

[Bildungsroman]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

lol. Extremely unrigorous.

[HeavenWood]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

lol. Extremely unrigorous.

I don't think most of us mere mortals could handle five graded classes and still be collegial.

[r6_philly]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

lol. Extremely unrigorous.

I don't think most of us mere mortals could handle five graded classes and still be collegial.

It's not a rumor, it's the plan I thought. It's also going up in credit, which will be much more rigorous. Although, this memo has been rigorous enough for me...

[HeavenWood]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

lol. Extremely unrigorous.

I don't think most of us mere mortals could handle five graded classes and still be collegial.

It's not a rumor, it's the plan I thought. It's also going up in credit, which will be much more rigorous. Although, this memo has been rigorous enough for me...

That's your own damn fault for gunning for honors.

[094320]

..

[r6_philly]

Rumor has it Penn's switching to a graded LRW next year, but will be dropping another graded fall semester class to lighten the load.

lol. Extremely unrigorous.

I don't think most of us mere mortals could handle five graded classes and still be collegial.

That's the Harvard first semester, though LRW is only 2 credits.

Same as Penn now, LRW 2 credits.

[r6_philly]

That's your own damn fault for gunning for honors.

Same percentage as A in doctrinal classes, makes sense to treat it the same.

[DallasCowboy]

Dude Law

[Xifeng]

I don't think this has been pointed out yet, but Chicago's LRW is ungraded the first quarter. And our LRW section is only ~30 people with ~90 in our other classes.

/ungradedmemodraftprocrastination

[Geneva]

Is LRW graded at UNC/Wake Forest/BC/BU?

Thanks!

[JusticeHarlan]

Is LRW graded at UNC/Wake Forest/BC/BU?

Thanks!

Graded at BC.

[super6]

Here's the UT data:
LRW is a 2-credit hour class with a class size <25, it's graded on the normal curve (B+ average).
Large section size is 99, half of the first semester classes are with your small section (just under 25 students) and there are 4 sections so average 1L class is just under 400.
OOS cost of attendance is $63,234 on the site, $57,890 on the ABA 2011 data.
Student:faculty ratio of 11.3:1
29% total minority enrollment 22.2% if Asians aren't a URM
44.6% female enrollment
77.1% of students receive grants with a median amount of $8,320

http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Publi ... ba6882.pdf

[pcwcecac]

As a prospective law student, I have no idea just how significant this LRW business is. I type/write slowly and poorly.

From a learning standpoint, would a graded LRW class help me improve writing more so than a P/F? I learned absolutely nothing from classes that I took P/F in college.

On the other hand, I will probably be raped in graded LRW class.

Do people fail LS because they never learned how to write properly?