UMiami vs. UF Forum

[whuts4lunch]

I imagine the $$ offer you have from Miami came with a 3.2 GPA stipulation (it is my understanding that the all of the 23k/year scholarships do). The stipulation makes the offer from Miami far inferior to UF's.

[Pleadthe5th]

I imagine the $$ offer you have from Miami came with a 3.2 GPA stipulation (it is my understanding that the all of the 23k/year scholarships do). The stipulation makes the offer from Miami far inferior to UF's.

Yes, you're right it did. Is it safe to assume that based on my LSAT I would be more likely to be one of the top students at Miami though and be more likely to make law review/get good grades than at UF? The LSAT is "supposed" to correlate to first year success in law school and my LSAT is way above Miami's 75% (and above Florida's too). I don't want to sound arrogant and I know every 0L thinks they will be at the top of their class, but does competing with students who, on average, have much lower LSAT scores give me any advantage?

[keg411]

OP, if your Miami offer has a GPA stipulation, negotiate with the school to get the stipulation thrown out and go to Miami. If what you say is true and overall cost would be lower at Miami than at UF, then you want to go where total cost is lowest. From everything I've heard from my law friends in Florida, UF=FSU=UM. According to them, there really isn't as much of a difference as UF would like you to believe (as always, however, it's a small sample size).

It is NEVER safe to assume you will be in the top of the class.

[whuts4lunch]

Yes, you're right it did. Is it safe to assume that based on my LSAT I would be more likely to be one of the top students at Miami though and be more likely to make law review/get good grades than at UF? The LSAT is "supposed" to correlate to first year success in law school and my LSAT is way above Miami's 75% (and above Florida's too). I don't want to sound arrogant and I know every 0L thinks they will be at the top of their class, but does competing with students who, on average, have much lower LSAT scores give me any advantage?

I believe that competing with students with much lower LSAT scores gives you an advantage. This is a big reason why I myself am considering both Miami and UF.
However, in the event your LSAT score overstates your capacity to perform on law school exams relative to your classmates to the point where your GPA dips below 3.2, you then would have to pay 38k a year to attend Miami with below a 3.2 GPA and the job prospects that accompany such a GPA. The issue is not that the scenario is very likely, but that it is not outside the realm of reasonable possibilities and the repercussions (high debt and poor job prospects) are drastic. Having a scholarship is far more crucial with a low GPA than with a high one, and the stipulation removes the opportunity to have a scholarship in the scenario where a scholarship is most necessary.

To me, a scholarship's true value is as insurance. A scholarship without GPA stipulation gives me the peace of mind that, in the event that I do not prove to be a great law student relative to my classmates, I will not be in dire straits because I at least did not spend a ton of money.

[GatorStudent]

I see. I assumed that he was referring solely to tuition when he said "cost". I suppose he will have to clarify.

Yeah, and he did. See below. I would be interested in seeing how much cheaper it would be, though.

I was totally kidding about Dow 18000. I don't know about a double-dip recession, in the legal economy or otherwise, but given that nothing has been done to work out the kinks in the system that led to the financial collapse of last year, and that only frantic bubble-pumping is responsible for the "recovery" we have seen since then, it would seem to be only a question of when rather than if we will experience a full-blown depression. However, there is no way to know when the world will well and truly come to an end (unless one has seen 2012), and I feel it prudent to, having made the decision to go to law school in the first place, choose the law school that will best equip me to secure a job (in the region where I want to live) whatever the economic circumstance. Why would anyone do differently? If one is seriously worried about one's law degree not helping one find employment regardless of which school one attends, then why would one go to law school in the first place? Better get a job at a local fast food restaurant and work one's way up to a managerial position over the next few years. Then one should have both employment and a massively positive financial balance relative to that one would have had one gone to law school.

You state that you should choose a law school that will best equip you to secure a job "whatever the economic circumstance." I don't think that's a sound idea (for most). There are reasons why massive amounts of lawyers are depressed compared to other professions; I posit that one of them is "crushing" debt, accompanied by a feeling that their situation cannot be changed due to this debt.

Of course, this depends on the person. Some people may know that the law is the only profession for them (although I find that most people discover this not to be the case), and they may definitely know that this is the region they want to live. But I find that many industrious people, as law students generally are, tend to be more open-minded (or become open-minded) as they journey through law school. Keeping this open-mindedness may be the difference between a life of fulfillment and a life of depression.

Having attended UF, might you have a hard time securing a high-paying job in Florida in today's economy, GatorStudent? Perhaps. But I would still think that your chances would be better than those of a student who did equally well at UM or at another law school in Florida. Wouldn't you? And maybe it would be even more advantageous to have a UF degree now, with fewer jobs available in South Florida and UM graduates possibly being forced to venture out of their traditional stronghold. Let the graduates of the schools with lesser reputations and/or reach drown while you, the graduate of the regional powerhouse, at least keep your head above water.

Your viewpoint is the conventional one, and it has merit. However, I'm playing devil's advocate, because I think prospective law students need to see both sides.

I am not originally from Florida, and I remember my having a hard time choosing between UF and UM. I will tell you this: I was fairly surprised not only at how well UM does in southern Florida, but I was also surprised to see studies showing the UM does better outside of Florida than UF. (And, IIRC, the study was fairly comprehensive, and it appeared quite legit.) (On a side note: FSU is a great place if you want to work in state government. Also, the DCA is right by the law school.)

I think that we get too caught up in the stereotypes sometimes. What do you define as a "regional powerhouse?" If "regional powerhouse" means having one firm come to spring OCI, that worries me. I've found, based on my experiences and those of others, that firms are relying less on the name of the school, and more on factors such as ties to a given community, which leads me to wonder: If you go to a place like UM, you've obviously shown a commitment to stay in UM, rather than heading to UF. In this economic climate, it may give one more of an advantage than in previous years.

Do I think that, proportionally speaking, UF students do better than UM students in s. Florida? Yes, of course. But I worry that for the OP here, the percentages may not increase enough to offset the cost (assuming that the cost is much higher, as I'm guessing. If it's not, all bets are off.).

EDIT: I see that the OP just mentioned that the UM scholarship is contingent; see my post above in response to the OP. That totally changes my mind.

[GatorStudent]

Yes, you're right it did. Is it safe to assume that based on my LSAT I would be more likely to be one of the top students at Miami though and be more likely to make law review/get good grades than at UF? The LSAT is "supposed" to correlate to first year success in law school and my LSAT is way above Miami's 75% (and above Florida's too). I don't want to sound arrogant and I know every 0L thinks they will be at the top of their class, but does competing with students who, on average, have much lower LSAT scores give me any advantage?

I cannot repeat this enough: THIS IS NOT SAFE TO ASSUME. I know people with LSAT's in the 150's who are on LR, and I know people who scored in the high 160's who did not make it. Grading is arbitrary to a large extent, and keep in mind that the LSAT only accounts for 25% of the variation in first-year grades (while good in the social sciences, that means that 75% of the variation in first-year grades is unaccounted for, at least at this time).

I also did not consider that your scholarship was contingent, as I (incorrectly) assumed you would've included this in your original post. I had a similar scholarship, and I chose UF because: a) you can't assume that you will do well-enough at a school, even based on LSAT and GPA (my LSAT was also above the 75% at both schools); and b) I've heard that some schools, such as Miami, "stack" sections so people are bound to lose their scholarships. Because of this, I chose UF.

[whuts4lunch]

GatorStudent,

I agree that one's LSAT score only says so much about his ability to perform in LS, but for a group of 300-400 students, the relationship between LSAT score and 1st year exam performance should be quite significant.

Wouldn't a Georgetown median student likely have a high rank at Miami or UF? Wouldn't a median student at Miami likely rank very low at Georgetown?

[baboon309]

3.2 Curve isn't that bad though.
The curve in Miami works out like following,

(Based on May 2008 graduation class)
Top 10%: 3.634
Top 25%: 3.439
Top 33%: 3.361
Top 50%: 3.203
Top 75%: 2.940

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124.411.04 when you graduate
In a 10 years repayment plan, it equals to $1483.05 per month
25 years repayment plan, it equals to $927.56 per month

As you've already said, your COL will be much lower than the one suggested by school
I think that you should figure out the real $ amount differenct between UF & Umiami

You can figure out how much debt will you have by 2013 using the spreadsheet that I built last night. The only thing that you have to do is to modify the tuition, Room/board, books & supplies. personal, transpotation and scholly columns.

http://uploading.com/files/b72b9d58/Mia ... 2BTLS.xls/

The spreedsheet only works if your annual loan need is larger than 20500 at this moment.
I am gonna revise it later on

Btw, section stacking is just an urban myth in this case(at least for UMiami)

[Pleadthe5th]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I thought that a 3.2 was a low enough threshold that it would not be difficult to keep the scholarship. With regards to Miami stacking scholarship students I actually brought this up when meeting with one of their recruiting heads and she assured me they do not stack sections. She knew it was a rumor on certain websites (probably referring to this one) and told me they have the requirement because they expect scholarship students to be towards the top of the class anyways. Obviously, she could have been lying, but I'd like to think a law school has some credibility with regards to their statements (hopefully). Nonetheless, I already planned on trying to negotiate more money and now thanks to your advice I will definitely also try to negotiate the GPA requirement out.

[OG Loc]

Miami is my second favorite US city and I've also looked into how I might start my career there. For the biglaw goal you mention, I see no difference between the two. All of the big firms will interview at both schools at the beginning of 2L and look equally deep into the class rankings - T10-25% to get an interview. Like the people have said, the odds are against you doing that well, even if your admission numbers are good. I would make a backup plan for if you don't do that well and assess the schools accordingly. Miami I think might be the better choice since you'll be in the city and can easily network in your spare time.

[summerschooled]

Miami is my second favorite US city and I've also looked into how I might start my career there. For the biglaw goal you mention, I see no difference between the two. All of the big firms will interview at both schools at the beginning of 2L and look equally deep into the class rankings - T10-25% to get an interview. Like the people have said, the odds are against you doing that well, even if your admission numbers are good. I would make a backup plan for if you don't do that well and assess the schools accordingly. Miami I think might be the better choice since you'll be in the city and can easily network in your spare time.

In general, personal connections and good networking make a huge difference when you're looking for a job in Miami. I know of quite a few Miami lawyers who got their first jobs from a friend of a friend or a family member.

[Lomax]

Great catch on the UM scholarship stipulation.

I've heard that some schools, such as Miami, "stack" sections so people are bound to lose their scholarships.

Quite frightening. I never thought of that being a possibility. I actually received a similar "must maintain a 3.2 GPA to renew" scholarship offer from UF, and can only hope that they do not play the same games as those schools. Fortunately, the cost of my legal education, should I attend UF, will be far less dependent on a scholarship than the cost of Pleadthe5th's, given UF in-state tuition.

You state that you should choose a law school that will best equip you to secure a job "whatever the economic circumstance." I don't think that's a sound idea (for most). There are reasons why massive amounts of lawyers are depressed compared to other professions; I posit that one of them is "crushing" debt, accompanied by a feeling that their situation cannot be changed due to this debt.

"Whatever the economic circumstance" means, more specifically and in this case, whatever the condition of the job market - not whatever one's personal financial situation. If one is taking on heaps of debt, then it is true that one may have to do much more of a balancing act and risk analysis in making a decision. We still have not ascertained whether or not Pleadthe5th is broke and taking on debt. Even if he were to have to borrow, say, $50,000, the advantages provided by a UF degree could see him repaying his loans in short order and then reaping rewards from that point on.

Is it safe to assume that based on my LSAT I would be more likely to be one of the top students at Miami though and be more likely to make law review/get good grades than at UF? The LSAT is "supposed" to correlate to first year success in law school and my LSAT is way above Miami's 75% (and above Florida's too). I don't want to sound arrogant and I know every 0L thinks they will be at the top of their class, but does competing with students who, on average, have much lower LSAT scores give me any advantage?

I am probably in the same boat LSAT-wise as you, and I know several individuals who scored lower far lower than me on the LSAT, but who I still consider to be my academic equals. In fact, one of them is a 1L at UM right now, and is doing quite well so far, as far as I know. You have taken the LSAT; you know what it is - a standardized test that many smart people can do poorly on on a particularly bad day. Of course, GPA is another story, and UM sets fairly low standards in that category in many cases. However, I would think that many people who did not show up before are going to be putting on their game face now. So, in summary, I agree with GatorStudent, who would know; best to assume that UM will section stack, that your personal life will fall apart all around you, and that you will come down with swine flu on multiple occasions during test-taking times, and, most importantly, that your classmates will not be a pack of clowns and will be wanting the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow every bit as much as you.

Obviously, she could have been lying, but I'd like to think a law school has some credibility with regards to their statements (hopefully).

So I guess that all those admitted URMs trailing the field at schools that claim that their decisions are in no way influenced by race, gender, etc., must have some really incredible softs that we don't know about. Oh, but wait - I guess those decisions could still be influenced by ethnicity.

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124.411.04 when you graduate

I think that the figure in question is actually $23,000 a year, not total.

[baboon309]

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124,411.04 when you graduate

I think that the figure in question is actually $23,000 a year, not total.[/quote]

I know. You should take a look on my Excel spreadsheet.
With $23,000 per year, it comes out to be $124,411.04

[sarlis]

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124,411.04 when you graduate

I think that the figure in question is actually $23,000 a year, not total.

I know. You should take a look on my Excel spreadsheet.
With $23,000 per year, it comes out to be $124,411.04[/quote]

over three years?

how is that possible; 38-23 is 15k a year, so 45 k from tuition for three years.

then COL is probably around 12k a year. so around 36k, but for this argument, we can say 40k

so that is 85k, not 124k

[baboon309]

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124,411.04 when you graduate

I think that the figure in question is actually $23,000 a year, not total.

I know. You should take a look on my Excel spreadsheet.
With $23,000 per year, it comes out to be $124,411.04

over three years?

how is that possible; 38-23 is 15k a year, so 45 k from tuition for three years.

then COL is probably around 12k a year. so around 36k, but for this argument, we can say 40k

so that is 85k, not 124k[/quote]

Well, that`s why I built up the spreadsheet.
All the loans will accrue while in school except Subsidized stafford loans.
Tuition is $38,012, COL is $21,663
Tuition+COL-23k =$36,675
It`s the amount that you have to borrow
There will be 9 separate loans in three years
3 Subsidized stafford loans, 3 unsubsidized stafford loans, and 3 Graduate + loans
Check out my excel spreadsheet, if you don't understand then ask me.

[Lomax]

Tuition is $38,012, COL is $21,663

Ah, here is the discrepancy. COL should be assumed to be close to $0 here. Pleadthe5th will be living at home should he choose to attend UM, and will probably be getting his parents to pay for more than just housing.

[keg411]

OP said their personal COL would be lower in Miami. So you can't calculate based on the traditional COL models for both schools since it doesn't apply in this case.

The 3.2 would still scare me a bit, OP. I really think you should try talking to them about getting rid of the scholarship requirement (or at least lowering it to "Good Standing", which is typically something like a 2.5 or 2.3 depending on the school; Top 50% isn't as bad as Top 1/3 or anything like that, though; if you're not above median at a regional you are going to struggle to get employment anyway, scholly or not). However, if costs are the same or similar, I don't think UM over UF is all that significant. The reason, IMO, UF & FSU are superior options to UM is the COA and COL, not the employment options.

[sarlis]

it said the spreadsheet was unavailable for download...

[baboon309]

it said the spreadsheet was unavailable for download...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cfn3ww

I just fixed it. This link should work

OP said their personal COL would be lower in Miami. So you can't calculate based on the traditional COL models for both schools since it doesn't apply in this case.

I am not OP, so I don't how much will be his COL.

The spreadsheet is just a template. You can plug in whatever number you want in my excel spreadsheet. As long as you borrow at least $20,500/yr, it will work.

[sarlis]

it said the spreadsheet was unavailable for download...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cfn3ww

I just fixed it. This link should work

OP said their personal COL would be lower in Miami. So you can't calculate based on the traditional COL models for both schools since it doesn't apply in this case.

I am not OP, so I don't how much will be his COL.

The spreadsheet is just a template. You can plug in whatever number you want in my excel spreadsheet. As long as you borrow at least $20,500/yr, it will work.

Great. thanks!

[Pleadthe5th]

My COL would be "standard" at UF. At Miami food (when I don't eat out) and housing will be free. I don't really know what other expenses I would face aside from gas and books/study aids (books/study aids I'm assuming would be equal at both schools). Basically, the gist I'm getting from everyone is that as long as I'm 100% practicing in the Miami-area, the employment prospects are pretty equal and I have to do outstanding at either school to achieve my goals that I stated in my first post. If I can get rid of the GPA requirement, thus ensuring equal tuition, my COL will be guaranteed cheaper at Miami and my QOL would be better (though, admittedly, from my visits I was a bit more impressed with UF). Miami's main perks to me are the cheaper COL, networking/work experience during school opportunities, and my serious girlfriend here (who I'm trying to not make a factor). I'm still unsure as to whether UF has much of an employment advantage (though it certainly has some) and that advantage is what's really keepng me on the fence. However, it's nice to know that UM is closer to UF than I thought before I heard everyone's opinions. I can't stress how helpful this advice has been and I definitely have a lot to think about (and negotiate) before I make my decision.

[GatorStudent]

GatorStudent,

I agree that one's LSAT score only says so much about his ability to perform in LS, but for a group of 300-400 students, the relationship between LSAT score and 1st year exam performance should be quite significant.

Wouldn't a Georgetown median student likely have a high rank at Miami or UF? Wouldn't a median student at Miami likely rank very low at Georgetown?

Let's assume arguendo that you're correct, and that the relationship is betw. LSAT score and 1st-year grades is greater.

Heck, let's assume that the relationship is twice as strong; in other words, the predictive validity of the LSAT is twice as high.

Even if that is true, the predictive validity is still "only" 50%. That's still a crapshoot, and I think many people go into their 1L years overconfident. I've seen people do it with my own eyes far too often....

Naturally, my "evidence" is anecdotal. I can think of three people off the top of my head whose LSAT's weren't great, and they're "academic all-stars." I can also think of quite a few people with high LSATs for UF (167 or above) who, while doing decently, aren't doing nearly as well as the LSAT predicts. (In the interest of full disclosure, though, I'm doing very well, approximately where I think LSAT and GPA would predict me to be.)

If it makes you feel better going into your 1L thinking that you have an advantage, then great, go for it! However, how much higher is the OP's LSAT compared to the median student and the 75% student? A small difference isn't going to probably mean much, and making a significant choice based on this wouldn't be wise, IMHO.

[GatorStudent]

Quite frightening. I never thought of that being a possibility. I actually received a similar "must maintain a 3.2 GPA to renew" scholarship offer from UF, and can only hope that they do not play the same games as those schools. Fortunately, the cost of my legal education, should I attend UF, will be far less dependent on a scholarship than the cost of Pleadthe5th's, given UF in-state tuition.

I can't vouch for that, but I've heard it on other forums, though. It's good to consider, and ask, as people do. (More often, it's claimed to be done by lower-ranked schools, outside the T100, in all fairness.)

"Whatever the economic circumstance" means, more specifically and in this case, whatever the condition of the job market - not whatever one's personal financial situation. If one is taking on heaps of debt, then it is true that one may have to do much more of a balancing act and risk analysis in making a decision. We still have not ascertained whether or not Pleadthe5th is broke and taking on debt. Even if he were to have to borrow, say, $50,000, the advantages provided by a UF degree could see him repaying his loans in short order and then reaping rewards from that point on.

I think this is fair. However, I worry that UF's advantage for the next few years may be lessened, as stated earlier. I've heard from FSU students that a substantial amount of them have jobs; the same cannot be said for UF students. That says something, my friend....

(And, no, I'm not trying to "bash" UF. I LOVE it here! But I want people going in with all the information they should have to make the right decision for themselves.)

Also, I'm sending you a pm.

[msv5010]

Question for those who have experience in this area. My top two choices right now are Rutgers (in state tuition, 8k/year with a 3.0) and Miami (23k/year with a 3.2). While technically I could live at home at Rutgers, I probably wouldn't, making COL essentially equal in either location.

With these things in mind, and all other things equal, Rutgers is clearly the better option right now. If I could negotiate the scholarship with Miami and remove the 3.2 minimum, or even lower it to a 3.0, the decision gets much more difficult.

What are my chances of removing the GPA requirement? If it helps, I have a 3.4 GPA and 162 LSAT. I am waiting on word from other schools, such as UF, FSU, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgia, Wake Forest, and a few other schools.

[Lomax]

Question for those who have experience in this area. My top two choices right now are Rutgers (in state tuition, 8k/year with a 3.0) and Miami (23k/year with a 3.2). While technically I could live at home at Rutgers, I probably wouldn't, making COL essentially equal in either location.

With these things in mind, and all other things equal, Rutgers is clearly the better option right now. If I could negotiate the scholarship with Miami and remove the 3.2 minimum, or even lower it to a 3.0, the decision gets much more difficult.

It sounds like you should think more about where you want to be, geographically-speaking, after you graduate than about which school might be slightly less expensive. If you are set on living in Florida, better go to Miami (or UF, if you get in, or FSU, if they give you a big scholarship offer) regardless of the cost. I would not think that your chances of finding employment in Florida out of Rutgers would be very good, even if you did well, whereas you should theoretically be pretty well set coming out of one of the big Florida schools.

What are my chances of removing the GPA requirement?

I am interested to hear if anyone has actually heard of the GPA maintenance requirement attached to a scholarship being negotiated away. I would love to give such negotiation a shot myself if it is known to have been done successfully and recently.