Chicago v. NYU Forum

[Renzo]

FWIW OP NYU will not be stronger for NYC jobs than Chicago. However, you sound like you have a personal affection for NYU that you don't have for Chicago. If the money is similar you might as well go to the school that you like better.

Stuff your anti-NYU trolling where the sun doesn't shine. Of course Chicago is going to be better for Chicago and NYU in NYC. I spent 45 min last night talking to a NY biglaw hiring partner, an opportunity I would not have had in Chicago, and I won't have a similar opportunity to network with Chicago folks.

[Renzo]

I am confused, what makes Chicago's point grading system so much worse than a letter grade system? Also, I think a lot of Chicago students have said on TLS that the whole rigor thing is overstated and it is probably about the same as every other top law school.

The difference isn't between points and letter grades, but the shapes of the curves.At the top of the class it doesn't matter, but it's impossible to really tell the 50th%ile from the 20th %ile at NYU, because their GPAs will be sooooo close. At Chicago you can always tell where people are in relation to others.

[Rocketman11]

NYU

[hopefullaw27]

Thanks for all the helpful replies so far. A couple of things: Chicago intrigues me because of it's much smaller class size than nyu. Also a sick twisted part of me sorta wants to experience and attempt to conquer chicagos intense academic environment. That being said, the sane and practical me realizes I have to do well in law school in order to weather this economy which makes me think nyu is better. I'm definitely going to visit both schools to get a feel for each.

As a quick aside, which school do you think has more lay prestige? Just curious as I've heard of uchicago equaling columbia

Thanks again!

[pehaigllleises]

I don't think it's going to be easier to do well at NYU than at Chicago. You also need to realize that everyone is going in with the goal of placing well in the class at both schools and that everyone can't be on top. Work hard, be proud of however you do, but don't set yourself up for disappointment.

[Flanker1067]

Personally, I always thought of Chicago as a better school (I think due to their UG programs?). However, I live outside NY (biased) and people have always been way more impressed when I mention applying to NYU then Chicago. I know this doesn't really help, because I am pretty sure lay prestige is mostly regional outside HYS.

[jerjon2]

Thanks for all the helpful replies so far. A couple of things: Chicago intrigues me because of it's much smaller class size than nyu. Also a sick twisted part of me sorta wants to experience and attempt to conquer chicagos intense academic environment. That being said, the sane and practical me realizes I have to do well in law school in order to weather this economy which makes me think nyu is better. I'm definitely going to visit both schools to get a feel for each.

As a quick aside, which school do you think has more lay prestige? Just curious as I've heard of uchicago equaling columbia

Thanks again!

I don't think UChicago has the same lay prestige as Columbia personally. I've run across some people that are really impressed with Chicago and others that don't know that its a good school at all or haven't heard of it. I don't think that happens much with Columbia. I think with Columbia people think its good but they're also thinking it's not HYP. I don't know how NYU and UChicago compare in lay prestige though.

[Flanker1067]

I don't think it's going to be easier to do well at NYU than at Chicago. You also need to realize that everyone is going in with the goal of placing well in the class at both schools and that everyone can't be on top. Work hard, be proud of however you do, but don't set yourself up for disappointment.

Also, I agree with this guy. While Chicago certainly has that rigorous reputation, I just think about how hard people work at all the other top schools and I really don't understand it. How is it possible to work that much harder than those at law school at a place like NYU? I'm a 0L, so if it isn't really as hard as I'm imagining, let me know.

Edit: How hard people SAY they work.

[pehaigllleises]

One piece of advice, right now, wherever you go.

Step 1: Ignore everyone else when they SAY how hard they work. Ignore them. Ignore them when they criticize your study method. Say "thanks" and walk away.

Step 2: Do what works for you. People think I'm a bit silly because I don't highlight in my books, I often don't bring my books to class, I take really really extensive notes on the readings on my laptop and barely any in class, I read canned briefs and skimmed the cases, and did not study with a group pretty much ever. That's basically what I did college, it's what I did here, and the results were fine. You got to these schools by doing what works for you, and changing that now based on what other people say you should be doing is a bad idea.

[Veyron]

1) Neither has "lay" prestige in the sense of impressing your hair stylist. Fortunately, just the fact of going to law school impresses people like that.
2)Among those that went to an elite college but know nothing about the legal field (as opposed to those with friends who are applying to schools), Chicago has more prestige.
3)Even non-legal people in Chicago will probably know that Chicago Law kicks ass.
4)Even non-legal people in New York will know that NYU law kicks ass.
5)Both schools are extremely prestigious in the legal community

Summary: Go to Chicago if your are interested in impressing your well educated non-lawyer friends. Otherwise, this is not worth considering.

[Renzo]

Thanks for all the helpful replies so far. A couple of things: Chicago intrigues me because of it's much smaller class size than nyu. Also a sick twisted part of me sorta wants to experience and attempt to conquer chicagos intense academic environment. That being said, the sane and practical me realizes I have to do well in law school in order to weather this economy which makes me think nyu is better. I'm definitely going to visit both schools to get a feel for each.

As a quick aside, which school do you think has more lay prestige? Just curious as I've heard of uchicago equaling columbia

Thanks again!

I agree that it isn't going to be any easier to do well either place, but NYU will do a better job of hiding your performance if you do relatively poorly. I would really just visit, sit in on a class, and talk to students. You can't go wrong either way. As for lay prestige, what Veyron said is a good summary. NYU undergrad isn't prestigious. U Chi is, but only to academics, not "lay people."

[The Brainalist]

I am confused, what makes Chicago's point grading system so much worse than a letter grade system? Also, I think a lot of Chicago students have said on TLS that the whole rigor thing is overstated and it is probably about the same as every other top law school.

The difference isn't between points and letter grades, but the shapes of the curves.At the top of the class it doesn't matter, but it's impossible to really tell the 50th%ile from the 20th %ile at NYU, because their GPAs will be sooooo close. At Chicago you can always tell where people are in relation to others.

Seems dubious that a firm would really make a decision between someone with a 1.76.4 and a 1.76.6 based on that .2 difference. Much like my feeling regarding non-grades at berkeley, if the inability to tell the difference between students was really a positive, then it would show up in the employment statistics. Obviously, non-grades aren't really helping you get employment any more than traditional grades, and people with traditional grades aren't outcompeting Chicago students on that basis of grades. It all seems like a red herring to me.

[kurama20]

FWIW OP NYU will not be stronger for NYC jobs than Chicago. However, you sound like you have a personal affection for NYU that you don't have for Chicago. If the money is similar you might as well go to the school that you like better.

Stuff your anti-NYU trolling where the sun doesn't shine. Of course Chicago is going to be better for Chicago and NYU in NYC. I spent 45 min last night talking to a NY biglaw hiring partner, an opportunity I would not have had in Chicago, and I won't have a similar opportunity to network with Chicago folks.

Wrong. Whether you like it or not NYU isn't going to do a person any better for NYC jobs than Chicago will. The placement statistics clearly show this and it's not a big surprise, historically Chicago has had a better reputation in the legal community and Chicago is stronger outside of NYC. Sorry friend but when the placement statistics (particularly when they are NYC focused ones: see the nlj250 placement stats and the vault 10/20 placement stats) back up what you are saying it doesn't count as "trolling". When it comes to NYC hiring NYU is obviously going to do incredibly well, but it still doesn't outdo Chicago. All of the NYC centric placement studies show Chicago as slightly stronger than NYU. He will essentially have the same NYC job opps from either school, however with Chicago he will have stronger non NYC options as well. What matters more though is what school the OP would be happier at.

[Renzo]

Wrong. Whether you like it or not NYU isn't going to do a person any better for NYC jobs than Chicago will. The placement statistics clearly show this and it's not a big surprise, historically Chicago has had a better reputation in the legal community and Chicago is stronger outside of NYC. Sorry friend but when the placement statistics (particularly when they are NYC focused ones: see the nlj250 placement stats and the vault 10/20 placement stats) back up what you are saying it doesn't count as "trolling". When it comes to NYC hiring NYU is obviously going to do incredibly well, but it still doesn't outdo Chicago. All of the NYC centric placement studies show Chicago as slightly stronger than NYU. He will essentially have the same NYC job opps from either school, however with Chicago he will have stronger non NYC options as well. What matters more though is what school the OP would be happier at.

Your placement statistics are imaginary. Find me a NEW YORK ONLY comparison of placement by NYU and UC grads, or GTF outta here with your made up bullshit.

[kurama20]

Wrong. Whether you like it or not NYU isn't going to do a person any better for NYC jobs than Chicago will. The placement statistics clearly show this and it's not a big surprise, historically Chicago has had a better reputation in the legal community and Chicago is stronger outside of NYC. Sorry friend but when the placement statistics (particularly when they are NYC focused ones: see the nlj250 placement stats and the vault 10/20 placement stats) back up what you are saying it doesn't count as "trolling". When it comes to NYC hiring NYU is obviously going to do incredibly well, but it still doesn't outdo Chicago. All of the NYC centric placement studies show Chicago as slightly stronger than NYU. He will essentially have the same NYC job opps from either school, however with Chicago he will have stronger non NYC options as well. What matters more though is what school the OP would be happier at.

Your placement statistics are imaginary. Find me a NEW YORK ONLY comparison of placement by NYU and UC grads, or GTF outta here with your stats and shit that make me insecure about my small dick size .

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html (straight up NYC fo you ass--and the "top" NYC firms at that) NONE of the V5 is are non NYC firms.

Let's take it a little further though. In the v25 where by far the vast majority of the firms are in NYC the gap is even worse.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Your placement stats are common sense anecdotes ( I once spoke to a NYC partner and they liked NYU a lot!) no shit sherlock. LOL at having the opportunity to talk to someone in NYC as proof that NYU is stronger in NYC than Chicago. No shit you can talk to people in NYC if you uh live there! Chicago's placement into NYC is just as strong as NYU's is--sorry--now GTF outta here with your made up shit based on your love of a particular school

If the OP wants to go to Chicago instead of NYU it will not hurt him for getting a job in NYC. He won't be any worse off (and he may arguably actually be better off) for going to Chicago trying to get a NYC job. HTMFH

Part of what's causing Chicago to do so well in NYC (as well as NYU as a matter of fact) is that NYC is the easiest market to break into, add that up with Chicago's long time prestige and it makes sense. Oh and by the way there was a 200 Harvard grad on here a while back who actually worked at a top 10 NYC firm and said that hiring went like this 1. HYS 2. Columbia (and apparently it's not very far behind HYS at all for NYC) and 3. NYU and Chicago tied he said that Cornell and Penn were in the next tier.

[Renzo]

Wrong. Whether you like it or not NYU isn't going to do a person any better for NYC jobs than Chicago will. The placement statistics clearly show this and it's not a big surprise, historically Chicago has had a better reputation in the legal community and Chicago is stronger outside of NYC. Sorry friend but when the placement statistics (particularly when they are NYC focused ones: see the nlj250 placement stats and the vault 10/20 placement stats) back up what you are saying it doesn't count as "trolling". When it comes to NYC hiring NYU is obviously going to do incredibly well, but it still doesn't outdo Chicago. All of the NYC centric placement studies show Chicago as slightly stronger than NYU. He will essentially have the same NYC job opps from either school, however with Chicago he will have stronger non NYC options as well. What matters more though is what school the OP would be happier at.

Your placement statistics are imaginary. Find me a NEW YORK ONLY comparison of placement by NYU and UC grads, or GTF outta here with your stats and shit that make me insecure about my small dick size .

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html (straight up NYC fo you ass--and the "top" NYC firms at that) NONE of the V5 is are non NYC firms.

Let's take it a little further though. In the v25 where by far the vast majority of the firms are in NYC the gap is even worse.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Your placement stats are common sense anecdotes ( I once spoke to a NYC partner and they liked NYU a lot!) no shit sherlock. LOL at having the opportunity to talk to someone in NYC as proof that NYU is stronger in NYC than Chicago. No shit you can talk to people in NYC if you uh live there! Chicago's placement into NYC is just as strong as NYU's is--sorry--now GTF outta here with your made up shit based on your love of a particular school

If the OP wants to go to Chicago instead of NYU it will not hurt him for getting a job in NYC. He won't be any worse off (and he may arguably actually be better off) for going to Chicago trying to get a NYC job.

Extrapolating job opportunities from 5 firms out of the 200+ that pay market wage in NYC is no better than an anecdote. Between NYU and Columbia, there are almost 1000 graduates every year; your "proof" from the V25 firms shows where eight went. That's 0.8% of the two combined classes. If that's your proof, you suck at understanding statistics. What's really funny is that you keep ignoring the link on that page you keep posting that says New York City. If you clicked on that, you'd see that NYU places a greater percentage of the class in NYC than U Chi. I'll save you the trouble of responding, because I know what you'll say: "EVERYTHING I DISAGREE WITH IS CAUSED BY SELF-SELECTION!!!111!!"

Oh, and I didn't give any placement stats, I used an anecdote to illustrate that everyone will always have better opportunities to network where they are physically present than where they are not present, and asserted that networks matter. U CHi is a great school, and I support your (well-evidenced) preposition that U Chi places better in Biglaw when you ignore regions. But anyone who wants to work in Chicago should go to school there, not NYC, and vice-versa.

[kurama20]

New York City. If you clicked on that, you'd see that NYU places a greater percentage of the class in NYC than U Chi. I'll save you the trouble of responding, because I know what you'll say: "EVERYTHING I DISAGREE WITH IS CAUSED BY SELF-SELECTION!!!111!!"

Oh, and I didn't give any placement stats, I used an anecdote to illustrate that everyone will always have better opportunities to network where they are physically present than where they are not present, and asserted that networks matter. U CHi is a great school, and I support your (well-evidenced) preposition that U Chi places better in Biglaw when you ignore regions. But anyone who wants to work in Chicago should go to school there, not NYC, and vice-versa.
[/quote]

No to be honest I'm totally with you on that self selection garbage. It is the most overused phrase on here. However, there are a few situations where it does apply, because you can actually SEE it. This is one of those case. Chi grads that go for NYC jobs are actually getting them at either the same rate or a little better than NYU grads, and it isn't just the v5. It's the entire v100. Look it up http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

[The Brainalist]

I just checked http://www.wachtell.com (V1) and Chicago has 16 people there and NYU has 30. From a brief look at the site I couldn't tell, but do they have offices outside of NY? It didn't look like they did, at least a couple of the Chicago people were NY licensed.

http://www.sullivancromwell.(V2) com shows 21 from Chicago and 67 from NYU. All of the Chicago grads are NY except 4 overseas and one in palo alto. For NYU 12 of them are non-NY offices, 1 palo alto, one DC, and 10 overseas.

http://www.skadden.com shows 23 Chicago and 91 NYU at the NY office.

http://www.cravath.com(V4) shows 13 Chicago and a whopping 66 NYU, all with NY area codes.

http://www.davispolk.com (V5) shows 8 Chicago and 85 NYU at their NY Office.



All-in all, that is 81 Chicago and 339 NYU. That would seem to be in NYU's favor even if NYU is twice as large. On the other hand, if less than 30% of Chicago grads (60 per year about) are even interviewing for NY firms and about 80% of NYU's 450 grads (390) are shooting for NY, then Chicago's v5 NY Office placement is pretty impressive. Chicago's ratio would be 81/60, which is about 1.33, and NYU's ratio would be 339/390, which is about .85. That is a pretty huge difference in placement power.

edited for numbers.

[dresden doll]

I'd love to know how this QOL clusterfuck got started. Apart from a relatively shitty location - IMO anyway - U of C is just fine, QOL-wise. In fact, school had a charity auction where booze flowed freely yesterday and I'll be heading off to a party my classmates are throwing in about an hour.

None of that is to say that you should definitely pick NYU over Chicago (IMO, NYC >>>> Chicago as a city). But you shouldn't base your decision on the nebulous notion that 'fun goes to die' at U of C. The partying contingent here in the class of 2012 is alive and well, and I suspect class of 2013 will be no different.

[The Brainalist]

I'd love to know how this QOL clusterfuck got started. Apart from a relatively shitty location - IMO anyway - U of C is just fine, QOL-wise. In fact, school had a charity auction where booze flowed freely yesterday and I'll be heading off to a party my classmates are throwing in about an hour.

None of that is to say that you should definitely pick NYU over Chicago (IMO, NYC >>>> Chicago as a city). But you shouldn't base your decision on the nebulous notion that 'fun goes to die' at U of C. The partying contingent here in the class of 2012 is alive and well, and I suspect class of 2013 will be no different.

For attracting students, it may not help. If you are looking for a job, though, it would probably be in your interest to go with it if someone has the impression that Chicago students are notorious for working harder than their peers, etc. Sometimes, the people who work the hardest also play/party the hardest to blow off steam, so what you are saying does deal with the reputation for "no fun" but not the reputation for being a more "rigorous" education. Excess of alcohol would actually confirm it in my book.

[dresden doll]

I'd love to know how this QOL clusterfuck got started. Apart from a relatively shitty location - IMO anyway - U of C is just fine, QOL-wise. In fact, school had a charity auction where booze flowed freely yesterday and I'll be heading off to a party my classmates are throwing in about an hour.

None of that is to say that you should definitely pick NYU over Chicago (IMO, NYC >>>> Chicago as a city). But you shouldn't base your decision on the nebulous notion that 'fun goes to die' at U of C. The partying contingent here in the class of 2012 is alive and well, and I suspect class of 2013 will be no different.

For attracting students, it may not help. If you are looking for a job, though, it would probably be in your interest to go with it if someone has the impression that Chicago students are notorious for working harder than their peers, etc. Sometimes, the people who work the hardest also play/party the hardest to blow off steam, so what you are saying does deal with the reputation for "no fun" but not the reputation for being a more "rigorous" education. Excess of alcohol would actually confirm it in my book.

I am not at all convinced that we work harder than anyone else. I treated law school like a part time job this past quarter (read: I put in 27-28 hours a week into it, and that's including classes), and I still managed to avoid being in the bottom half.

That said, I was easily the biggest slacker at my school.

[Belili]

<---

[studylaw7]

Here's my business perspective:

In Illinois business terms (speaking of the MBA, not JD) they say a Northwestern/Kellogg MBA is the paper you must have to get a meeting with a Chicago/Booth grad.

are you suggesting Chicago booth > Kellogg. Few would you agree with you on this one, except for Finance.

Chicago on the other hand, is all business ...

do you think that UChi is more revered for business than law? I think it's the other way around. Remember, econ is not the same as business. some econ professors are "part" of the b-school faculty, but some econ professors are also part of the law school faculty.

[kurama20]

I just checked http://www.wachtell.com (V1) and Chicago has 16 people there and NYU has 30. From a brief look at the site I couldn't tell, but do they have offices outside of NY? It didn't look like they did, at least a couple of the Chicago people were NY licensed.

http://www.sullivancromwell.(V2) com shows 21 from Chicago and 67 from NYU. All of the Chicago grads are NY except 4 overseas and one in palo alto. For NYU 12 of them are non-NY offices, 1 palo alto, one DC, and 10 overseas.

http://www.skadden.com shows 23 Chicago and 91 NYU at the NY office.

http://www.cravath.com(V4) shows 13 Chicago and a whopping 66 NYU, all with NY area codes.

http://www.davispolk.com (V5) shows 8 Chicago and 85 NYU at their NY Office.



All-in all, that is 81 Chicago and 339 NYU. That would seem to be in NYU's favor even if NYU is twice as large. On the other hand, if less than 30% of Chicago grads (60 per year about) are even interviewing for NY firms and about 80% of NYU's 450 grads (390) are shooting for NY, then Chicago's v5 NY Office placement is pretty impressive. Chicago's ratio would be 81/60, which is about 1.33, and NYU's ratio would be 339/390, which is about .85. That is a pretty huge difference in placement power.

edited for numbers.

EXACTLY. That's what I'm saying. The truth is that going to Chicago instead of NYU for someone who wants to work in NYC really won't hurt you at all. To be fair I'm a little uncomfortable saying that Chicago does better in NYC than NYU, but it at least does just as well. Like you said it really starts to become apparent when you look at how huge NYU's graduating classes are compared to Chicago's ( Chicago is usually about 200 while NYU's is usually a little under 500), add that to the fact that a much smaller portion of Chicago's class is even going for NYC and it starts to become even more obvious that Chicago is just as strong as NYU is in NYC. Again though, OP should go where he would be happier. But it wasn't right for people to start telling him that he would have a harder time getting NYC jobs from Chicago--it just isn't true.

And no Wachtell is only in NYC.

[Renzo]

I just checked http://www.wachtell.com (V1) and Chicago has 16 people there and NYU has 30. From a brief look at the site I couldn't tell, but do they have offices outside of NY? It didn't look like they did, at least a couple of the Chicago people were NY licensed.

http://www.sullivancromwell.(V2) com shows 21 from Chicago and 67 from NYU. All of the Chicago grads are NY except 4 overseas and one in palo alto. For NYU 12 of them are non-NY offices, 1 palo alto, one DC, and 10 overseas.

http://www.skadden.com shows 23 Chicago and 91 NYU at the NY office.

http://www.cravath.com(V4) shows 13 Chicago and a whopping 66 NYU, all with NY area codes.

http://www.davispolk.com (V5) shows 8 Chicago and 85 NYU at their NY Office.



All-in all, that is 81 Chicago and 339 NYU. That would seem to be in NYU's favor even if NYU is twice as large. On the other hand, if less than 30% of Chicago grads (60 per year about) are even interviewing for NY firms and about 80% of NYU's 450 grads (390) are shooting for NY, then Chicago's v5 NY Office placement is pretty impressive. Chicago's ratio would be 81/60, which is about 1.33, and NYU's ratio would be 339/390, which is about .85. That is a pretty huge difference in placement power.

edited for numbers.

Kudos for actually finding meaningful data, and knowing how to use them. Unless there is some measure of how many people would like to work in a different market (and there isn't), it's pretty meaningless. We can introduce all kinds of crazy assumptions to make the date fit with out beliefs (coughcoughKuramacough), but the only thing that the data show is that both schools will open doors.